NASA-UAP-D027, Apollo 14 Debriefing (Continued), 1971

to my streets appeared to be on the periphery and for the first several days I got the impression that this direction was predominant. Later on it appeared that I don't think I could get that good a pattern but that was my first impression for the first couple of days. The next question is was there any apparent direction of propagation? And could you tell it was coming from one side to the other from where the system was going to flash? Somebody thought you didn't say from the left of the right or something like that. I tried to correlate it but in my case I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it. Yeah I would think that the time period in which we tried to report them street by street, flash by flash, was representative. And it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period and therefore generally random throughout the time that we were noticing. No I meant could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other? Oh yeah. It was moving in a specific way. Oh yeah, a specific flash. Yes, yes. But you could see it as a travel from one side to the other. You really think we tried to report it that way? That's the way it was puzzling us because it has to be very fast, you know. Isn't that question kind of redundant then? I didn't believe you. Was there some character to these flashes that had some aspect of direction? Were they all the same? Rod shaped or were they have a tail on them? Well, so what I reported as a streak was simply that. Now maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction leaving a tail. But I can't say that for sure. All I reported was a streak and I had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other. And I reported that direction and I can't clarify it much more than that. I mean, I guess people are asking a question. We just tell us the lights. I think they can see this in the dark and cool. But just right. The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it. I think you may have liked that. Well, can you see anything? Yeah, except that's what it looked like except it was traveling. In other words, it started out and it definitely progressed across the field of view. The direction of motion for an individual. Right. Yeah, except you're not traveling. It was traveling. I know. You started the point of it. It's easy. I never did see it too simultaneously either. Neither did I. You have two streaks on that. I never saw that. At one time you saw a semicolon shaped thing. So what? A semicolon shaped object. This was in the first report. I never did. If I reported it, that's what I saw. But I don't remember it. Did you see anything that looked like this? All I'd say is whatever was reported. No. No. You know, we discussed the various shapes prior to flight. And I concentrated pretty hard on trying to see the shapes. And I think as I reported, no. It was either a streak and just a rather simple streak. Or it was a flash and rather a simple flash. Nothing too exotic about it. And on a more rare one would be maybe just a pinpoint of light for an instant. Rather than get the idea of a flash. It would just be a pinpoint for a second and it would be gone. But that was more rare than the other two. Yeah, I meant, you know, like watching an explosion. You know, just a ball versus just a steady dot, yes. Was it like this at all? Did you see that? No. Can't see it. We're not getting any lighting. I don't think it's lighting. Oh, there was something just as you turned it there. Okay, you can see that. I mean multiple, this one. Okay, that to me would be the pinpoint that I'm describing. The eruption or the novas we call them would be more of an explosion. Yeah. Yeah. Are there more dots than that? Well, you've got a very, very bright center and a diffused edge. I would say that the impression I had was you would have an area like that indicating a blow-up, but the center wasn't predominantly that bright. That's getting closer to what I would refer to as a nova or a flash. That's not as bright as what I call a nova. And was your nova an explosion like this or a discrete flight flight? No, it was what I called a nova was more of a blob that seemed to start with that and kind of expand. More diffused. Yeah, more diffused as the time went on. But, right other than that? Right other than that, yes. That's what I about what I call a flash or a star. Here again, you've got too much contrast between the center and the diffused area there though. That's what I'm saying. Also, your time frame that your flash you got is too long. It was faster than that. Am I right then from what you just said that when you said flash you really meant a star or not a, not a, would not what you just described? I think I almost didn't use flash and star interchangeably. That's not true for you. No, when I flash nova to me were essentially the same thing. The only distinction I make is the pinpoint versus an explosion. Okay, I think what Stu was calling a pinpoint was about what I'd call a star or flash. And a nova to me was a much bigger, brighter thing. Okay, a couple of quick ones. Well, the cabin lighting exactly, was it completely dark where there's some instrument lights still on? Absolutely dark. Absolutely dark. Okay. Well, wait a minute. Well, yeah, there is. You're talking about the time period that we ran this quantitative report, right? Right. Right. Completely dark. Okay. And did you have your eyes closed most of the time where they open in the dark cabin? Mine was closed. Yeah, I'd go. Even though we had the window shades and when we roll around to the sun, I don't want to hit some of the windows to be some light seepage around. We were aware of that at the time, so. Then during that time, we were at least tired. I made the temperature. Close my eyes closed. Yeah, open otherwise. And of course, we closed our eyes when it had flipped his flashlight on. But generally speaking, eyes were open. No, mine was almost closed all the time. I was floating down the corner of the L.E.B. But I kept my eyes closed because I didn't know when I rolled into the sun. I didn't want to pick up any light at all. Okay. The next question on the flashlight was when you shine it in your eyes, what was the approximate duration in each eye about how many seconds? Well, I just kind of moved it across for over five seconds or so. Five, six seconds. It hurt. It hurt, right? Yeah. And the next question on still your orientation in the L.E.B. You said you were looking toward plus X. Is will you across? I was generally, you know, how you have the three couches and plus X is I was oriented this way with my head looking face up down in this corner. So your head was in the same direction as it would be if you were on the couch. Yes, that's it. And the next question is, in almost every case you did report that it was in one eye, the other one I believe is one incident where you had both eye. And my question is, maybe someone redundant, but you absolutely certain that you've been distinguished that it was one eye as opposed to... Yeah, I felt I was getting more than the left than the right, for some reason. But in fact, the fact you're all heavily biased was the right on the one on your report. Really? Very heavily. Like rear water one. I was sworn that I was biased to the left. You had 12 right and six left. And Al, you had ten right and four left. And of the ones you reported, Steve, you had six right and two left. And the rest were the number of reports of both eye. It was all very heavily bit biased to the right eye. That's first present. No, well, Bill. Well, I was talking about that. It seems to me that I would get a flash or a streak or whatever the phenomenon or whatever was simultaneously with somebody else reporting. That's exactly the next question. There were three from listening to the tapes. Three events and it occurred in cases where different pairs were followed. Which were coincidences. And I think in one case, Ed, you said flash, and then Al, you said simultaneous with him. I had a flash in the whole right eye. Now, my question would be, when simultaneous, was it after he began speaking or was it in fact, was his words good enough for you to have been a mark on your flash? Well, with certainty, within a fraction of a second, I think it was simultaneous. Yeah. A couple of times it happened to me. His mark, or whoever mark he was, was good enough. Yeah. Okay. Same here. And the next question is earlier before the session, when you were describing some of the subjective observation, you mentioned the halos that you'd seen, that you'd see a flash followed by an absolute take his halo off to put it away. You know. Wait a minute. I'm sorry. Okay. The actor effects. Were they present most of the time? Did you see? The man's conchances of spiking in a sort of glow afterwards. Only on what I call the nova and the supernail. Is that true for you, too, Steve? I really know the halo effect myself. I guess I'm not sure what we're calling the halo effect. You mean a diffused brightness? More like an after glow dynamic? call any of those? I sure don't remember. No, I didn't describe it. Yeah, I don't think I saw any of those. Okay. And the other question we had was, do you want to make any observations in lunar orbit? It's not, I know there were no formal theories, but any, you know, I thought about that on the way back. And I was, I was so tired that night that I really don't remember seeing any flashes, but I didn't look for any either. So I guess the question would be, I consciously did not see any, but I sure that's, I wouldn't take that as a data point. Okay. And then the final question I have is, after our formal session was on, was it about 191 GET? You then had a sleep period later on. Do you remember whether you saw any during that sleep, very close your hand? It's significant whether you're inside the magnetopole. Yeah. I don't consciously recall, but I don't really recall if there was any night, except on the lunar surface, that I didn't. And sometime or another see some, you definitely didn't see any on the lunar surface? I just know, I don't remember about the lunar surface. There was precious little sleep that night. Okay. So, we'd also like for a minute to get to the next problem. While you're dousing a lot, I have one additional question. Did you get the impression that light flashes could have been within a cabin or definitely within your eye? Definitely within the eye. Okay. I want to get some idea about orientation and length of the streets. Did you ever see anything in the sunlight? No, no, I never did. Do you use the terminology of six o'clock or hours of the clock? Does that mean to you when you say six o'clock to the center about how long the street is that? That's a hard question to answer. If you were visualizing something about the arms length away from you, how long would you say your long history was? That long? Do you see my fingers? I'll show them. Let me describe it a different way. It appeared to me that the things I would say were three or four inches away from my plane, whatever that means, and were a couple of inches long. Tell us what it makes up. Two long for me. One of above looks better. Probably fairly close. See, I'm not sure what our scale is here. I'd rather say that if I consider whatever it may be, but the field of view of saying my right eye and take a radius of that, then I'd put a streak at about a half the radius would be the language street. Half or a little longer? Is there any way that you can associate this length of the screen to what you said? Well, it would depend on how big a circle I want to draw from my field of view. I saw streaks that long because with my eyes closed, I imagine a rather big field of view here in my eye. I'd see streaks that long. Yes. The way you had it, bring it on up that way. I think I had them from several directions, and I reported them as moving from one direction to the other at that time. There were several others. How about any particular direction up and down left and right? I didn't notice any preferred orientation. I'm here again. I think I'd try to express the length of the arc of the flash in terms of the peripheral field. If you're talking about a horizontal peripheral field as being somewhere in the vicinity of 50 to 160 degrees, then in some cases the light flashes would go across as much as 50 or 60 degrees of that. Where the light flash is broken in the center? In some cases they were. In some cases I had the feeling it was two dots, one immediately following any other, giving the impression of right to the left and top to bottom or bottom to top or left to right. The point is you see that the retina is so curved, but if you draw a straight line, you can't get too long. You shouldn't be able to get too long a streak of that breaking out of the retina again. You'll find the right to go straight like that. But it has some depth, doesn't it? Has it been any longer than that? It just is around the retina. Can't hear that. Through a couple of portions. Can't hear you. It should not have been any longer than what I showed you. It could just went through the retina in one track, but it went through a couple of eyes and you'd have an impression of a long streak. That's why we're interested in the character. I have one more about the cloud that you saw. This is a new phenomenon which we hadn't expected. Did you describe this lightning behind the cloud? I think it occurred, I reported it a couple of times, and it appeared, as I recall, to be down low on one eye or the other, and it was just a diffuse lighting. Any color? White, silver. If you were out in the country and looking at the horizon and there was lightning behind a cloud, was it like that? Except generally, if you do that, you can see a streak behind the cloud. This, there was no streak, it was just a diffuse lighting. Simulate it, look at that. I don't know, it gives my little simulate. That sort of phosphine, when you get out of the car and make it look at it. One last attempt to try to get the cloud here. That was the lights a minute. Good job. How are ya? The face don't wet. Wasn't anything like that. I didn't see it. That's pretty dim cloud, right? They have no dark adapt, but I still don't see it. I haven't seen anything, aren't ya? Okay. But what you're trying to describe is just what we used to call heat lightning as a kid. Yeah, that's a general, uh, diffuse light. Yeah. You didn't see the relief of the cloud, are you? Uh, no, not necessarily, no. They're just, they're just a blob of light. The one final question, we didn't voice up to your question about whether you, you noticed any other sensations besides flashes, which was the reason for asking that was the difference that did you feel a tingling or find yourself twitching or hear anything. The reason for that is if it is an interaction back in the brain, then you're out of senses and just around sensitive is your visual sense, and maybe you should feel something, but you never know this value. Then no, sir. Then no, sir. Then no, sir. Sensational. There are two things to think about. Did you notice your thumb etching or your lips twitching? Particularly. No? Never looked for it, ain't it? Well, it's, you know, these are suggested questions and the fact that you say no is, uh, you can press on with different parts of the anatomy. You might get a yes, but you can do it. Well, that's a great, it's two biggest cross sections for you. Right. You know, if there's something significant about your thumbs or your lips, yeah, maybe you should warn people to look for that, uh, because, uh, I don't know, unless it's going to be so obvious that, that if you would, might you see me jump over it? Well, sometimes you might think you should be. Feel very comfortable. Okay. Thanks very much. So, I think, um, I, I think I said in a way yesterday that you really didn't provide a, uh, normally improved metadata on this phone and that we've had in many previous months. That's great. Well, I would, I would add this to that. I think that's the way you really have to go is to take a definite trip, set it aside and do it because otherwise it's so random and, uh, so many other things going through your mind that, uh, the other way of getting quantitative. However, you, you did a remarkable job of concentrating on, about length of time. Uh, you, you, uh, feel that that was being unreasonable to ask you to do that, that you've done the sleep or something like that. Now, it's pretty boring thing to do. You're sitting there lying watching. You think we, you know, we should be, uh, aware that in planning for, doing this sort of thing on future missions that we should be, we shouldn't try and do a much more than we tried to get you to do because there's too much businesses that they're lying and they're trying to concentrate. I'm like, well, you can find a time period during the fight when, uh, when they have, when there isn't anything else to do. I think it's a reasonable to suggest that. I don't think I would do it before a sleep bird or when they're tired or they'll go to sleep while you're there. Yeah, you know, I think along that line felt by the time you've, if you, you know, talk a little bit briefly like we did and, uh, and then you know the phenomena is there because, you know, the, your first sleep period or the first time you get to spacecraft dark and close your eyes, you're going to see flashes. And, uh, so then that, you know, sort of sparks your curiosity a little more. And then when they say, let's settle down and, and count them while I think you're agreeable to it. Okay. Hey, one other comment on that. And I don't, I'm not even sure that I, that it, that it's related, but I, I really think that this is just a general impression that if I would look at my, look at, say, the glow of the wristwatch or something like that and then close my eyes again, I'd almost always see a, see a flash. And, and I, and I tried then to correlate looking at, say, a crack through the, through the window shade or looking at my watch or something and then closing my eyes. And I really came to the impression that the, that the two may have been correlated, but I never really looked at it enough to, uh, to say that for sure. But I think there was a correlation between, between seeing a light of something like this and enclosing your eyes and, and pretty soon you, you, you pick up that flash. That's, that's an important observation. If the action is directly in the bipolar or the red in the cells, the other segment, you might expect it to behave the way electrical phosphions do rather than, than just from life, which takes dark in action. What do you think about that? I'm not quite sure what your point is. I was going to make the comment that, uh, with respect to the flashes, putting the flashlight in my eyes did not seem to destroy my dark adaptation. Uh, now what that means, I don't know. Did you do like that? Yep. That's low or that fast. Yeah, for some time. Do you see any wiped out some of the nerves? I wiped out something. I'm not sure that's true, Chuck. How long did you do it? You shouldn't wipe it all out of me. Uh, oh, a couple of minutes, a minute, a minute back and forth like this, about five seconds per drive. Something like that. Yeah. Hey, hey, you know that. I mean, where you're seeing, though, is it the reason you think you didn't knock it all out is because you can still see the flashes. Is that what you're seeing? Well, the cockpit looked different. Remember, I was doing his eyes open. Right. And, uh, it seemed like with just what I consider dark adaptation, that I was more dark adapted, uh, that I dark adapted much sooner after doing that, than I did when we started the experiment. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. That you would do. We should wipe out the cums less for that. Just with the license you do with the tungsten light or something else. Hey, I'd like to make sure that on this dark adaptation, I know during the, uh, during the formal, uh, hour or 40 minutes, whatever it was that Ed was, was shining the light. But I don't know whether you picked it up on the air to ground or not, but I had done that prior to that during one of the sleep periods. And there's, there's just, you do not have to be dark adapted to see these. Yeah, I think that's a good thing to drop them with insane. That's a very generic data point because it almost certainly proves that it's not not a real light in your, in your eye, you know, in your eye and take them in the direction. Yeah. But why did it take us along when we started the experiment before we saw anything? It was quite a while. And yeah, what I white light across my eyes within 30, 40 seconds. So they're, they were working. Yeah. But when I did it with the flashlight within 30, 40 seconds, they were right there again. You, you said that they were a fighter. They seemed finer than they had on previous, previous times that you deserved them. And there definitely is a threshold effect of some sort because you saw twice as many during that period as the other two did. And I think maybe it's just, my guess was when I, when you didn't see them and then you started to see them regularly, was that it was just that they're a fainter. They seem fainter than your expected. And so I took a while to sort of get your attention now to fainter ones than what you're looking for. Well, that may be, that may be the case except they did indeed the pure fainter in the beginning. And it wasn't a matter of looking for fainter objects. They were brighter after, after a while. And they didn't diminish the brightness when I didn't flashlight across my eyes. They were still just as bright 30 seconds later as they had before I used the flashlight. And that's why I'm questioning the dark adaptation bit. Either I didn't wipe the dark adaptation out or there is something related to dark adaptation that influences the phenomenon. I don't understand it. That makes sense. That's our time period that we did it. And the few flashes we saw was very surprising to me. And we talked about this and we commented on it at the time. Boy, it seemed like, you know, you'd wake up during a sleep period. And they were all over the place. Now here again, maybe I'd lose track of time. You know, you're laying there in the dark cabin and maybe it was longer than what I thought. But it just seemed like the, you know, there's, there's abundance of flashes. And I was amazed when it took 17 minutes to see a flash. I thought anytime that you wanted to close your eyes, you were going to, and concentrate on it, you were going to, you were, you were going to see these things. That's why I suggest that you really ought to set a time period aside because it is such a random function for us. I'm concerned that try to do it in a non-quantitative basis, it's often done. Plus the fact that I think that that each individual is going to report at different levels of activity too. I had a feeling there was maybe some little fake things that I would sort of see that I didn't want to talk about because I couldn't define them as a flash. I had those too. I think, I think also that's a good idea to do it this way because you're a subjective impression that it's not necessarily right. Like you felt that you were, you saw a moment and left out on your right and that wasn't true. Those were all perfect. We need to get the data real common. When you go to sleep at night, do you see any of these things? Most people do see something as they're going to sleep in a dark room. They can't actually sleep right away, down here. I think everyone would do that. I don't know. Yeah, you've got lights blinking around on your eyes if you get in a real dark room occasionally. Maybe because we'd never really concentrated on looking for this particular type of phenomenon. These phenomenon that you saw were different from the ones that you see once in a while. Sorry, a lot more frequent than the question. A lot in brightness. How about what? Branches. It's hard to see. I guess I'll make a note to see if I see any of those from here on, but I certainly haven't since we've been back. But here again, and Ed mentioned this, and I agree with him, but it's another subjective thing, that the flashes you see when you wake up in the middle of the night as a whole appear to be brighter than the flashes as a whole during that experiment that we did during the day. And I'm like Al, I was a little reluctant to call anything except a very positive flash during that time frame. I wanted to make really sure that that was indeed a market at the time that I called it. But those that you saw during the middle of the night appeared to be brighter. And I can say it appeared to be more of them. But here again, you know, you may lay there for an hour and you think it's five, five, ten minutes or something. I don't know. Maybe you lose track of the time, but it's a subjective thing. And so one blue flash, did anyone else see color? No, wait a minute. That wasn't blue. It was a silver, blue white, sort of like a blue diamond. It was like a blue diamond. Was that the brightest that you saw? I don't recall it. It was the brightest note. Has anybody been hitting the head and seeing stars? Yeah. Would these anything like that? I think I'm more concentrated on the pain. When you go to bed tonight, if you, what's in the dark room, if you just knock on your eyeballs, you should see flashes in the microwave. Try that and see what they look like the same photo. Yeah, we cry a lot in here. No, I'll say, you know, if you can get to the next cruise interested, Phil, you know, it makes a great topic of conversation. And, you know, during the flagging, you've got nothing else to talk about. You can talk about light flashes. So, you know, I think if you get to get the cruise curiosity around, it's a good deal. Well, I think the, the pressure which on the subject, which is built up, such that the movie, some formal experiment on this thing, is probably the way to go. Okay. Thanks very much. Thank you. Thank you. We're okay. That was, we'll keep back in time for you and let you know what we're going to do with this other thing and what we're going to do, and how things are coming time-wise for the index to watch out for the present. Totally. You know, you know what the date is, you know what the time is now, the whole 731 on Saturday, though. Oh. Release timing. Yeah. Work on springing a certain job. Somebody said that 21 days ended up on Saturday morning. Yeah. I would have been led to believe otherwise, Chuck. In the debriefing class, to 0,800 to 26th product. Diggs, as we get out, uh, Friday morning. He called yesterday, and he called me, and I thought he says, how do we ever get this number in here? I said, I don't know what you guys said. Well, the radiation people are here. We're talking about release and all that kind of business. Can we get a half on when they're going to get total body counts?