NASA-UAP-D026, Apollo 14 Debriefing, 1971

You're coming through loud and clear. Okay, I guess we can. 20 mics. One for you. What mics do we need? Good morning Charles. Hello. How are you? Fine. How are you? Fine. Good. Terrify. Good. Good. Yeah, we tried to go through this, you know, your debrief last night, the printed one. You know, all the stuff that you guys did on tape, your tech debrief, to get those sort of, we try and not repeat, you know, only amplified stuff. And so we've tried to come up, you know, much time to do that, but I hope we've got most of that stuff. And if you think we're hitting some area that you think, you know, as a conflict with that, we'll yell, tell us. All righty. Change it around. And some of the things, now there were some things that you guys said yesterday, when I was in the project, that probably, bear on some of these two. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you. Let's go in here, come on. Yeah? Come on, Belle. All right. Hey, Greg. Oh, you're using those buttons? I don't know. I don't know how long. I don't know the floor. I don't know if they're asking a question or identifying yourself. Yeah. Transcribing your voices. I'll make any of these people there. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Somebody know that. Okay. I'm going to go ahead and get some of the sources of the casting of the die. I'm going to get them for somebody. Yeah, I think it's Smith and Rapa. I don't know how many of you I have. We don't have any. We have some stuff right now. Yeah. Great. Sorry about that. On the door. I got some. I got some. There's a curse. Another one. Yeah. It's going to be hard to watch the action. I heard what you did. Okay. The show's on yours. What kind of format do you have in mind today? Okay. Questions and answers. Yeah. Questions and answers. I guess we ought to, for the tape, identify this Dr. Barry and for the medical debriefing. And I'll try and ask most of the questions that people have. Some here will try and hand them in that way if they're not what you identify yourself. And I think they can identify you guys' voices pretty well already on the tape so there shouldn't be any problem with the tape thing. They're not loud enough? It's a little down, yeah. Mr. Barry. Where is he? I'll take care of him. Probably outside, I guess. Can you get him to turn him upside? Well. We can yell for a while here if it'll help and then we can get him to turn him upside. You just speak up loud. One, two, three, four, five, five, four, three, two, one. Is that where it's coming from there? Oh, Craig will get somebody in there. Hi. You got Tom. Try again. One, two, three, four, five, five, four, three, two, one, test out. Well, it's not coming in there though. They're not getting it in there. Okay. We can hear them great but they're not hearing us very well. Yes, inside, straight inside. The speaker and after Mike. Okay. I said it on the minimum setting and here's some of the max. The max seems to be the end vice versa. Oh really? Yeah. Hey, that's a lot better. Okay. It's labeled wrong. There is screwing up and it's too much. Yeah. Yeah, we can hear you loud and clear now. It's great. Okay. Good show. Okay. I'm going to start a little bit out of order here but one of the things that sort of pervades it all is medical requirements and in section 27 you had some comments about the medical requirements and I thought we ought to just give one question with you. In explaining the medical requirements we have one opportunity to do that with DEAC of course at the time that we're trying to get the document, the medical requirements document published. The second, the only opportunity we really get to go over that with you was at the 30 day briefing prior to the flight. Now did you guys feel that you had an understanding of what the requirements were because when I read this it sounds like you did not. Is that true? I think I read the forms, Chuck, and understood in general what you were after at least the number of sessions we had. I think it's a question of degree. Yeah. Okay. Well, one of the things we tried is a very valid thing like I could. I asked comments about, you know, you should substantiate requirements. No question about that. They should be clear. They should be clear to you in the sense that you ought to know that what you are doing is worthwhile and the stuff is used and it isn't wasted somewhere down the line. Somebody's just doing it for fun. Yeah. And we try, that's something we try to iron out pretty hard in our own house. And one of the things I'd like to do is if we run, if you guys end up at the sometime before the end of the quarantine period here and ask them, we ought to have that data together by then and then prior to the time that we end up getting you out, if you've got an hour or some time we might be able to go over with you and show you. Here's what we saw with you and with the lab data in the whole bit and say, because, you know, it's very hard to get back together again after you get out of here to do that sort of thing. Everybody says they'd like to know what happened to them. We could do that to you and tell you that, and here are the samples that were used to do then. So you have some idea of understanding about how that happened. Would that be worthwhile to you? Yeah, the comment was made not from a point of view, a specific complaint about our flight, but just, I think, a continuing understanding between the two directors. We agreed ahead of time because it's a kind of thing, well, just like without signing any experiments, unless the career understands the reasons and agrees with it, the other thing isn't going to be as successful as forever. Amen. It wasn't the comment, it wasn't made from a point of criticizing anything specifically about our protocol at all, just to reiterate what everybody ought to know but doesn't know what to think about. Yeah, good. And I think Chuck also, probably the last few weeks before flight, is not the time to try to brief the crew on the medical requirements. At that time, their thoughts are quite a bit on other things, and perhaps it needs to come earlier than that. Oh, that's a good point. I think each one of us is concerned with ourselves medically, the medical effects, the physiology of flight, et cetera, et cetera, until the last few weeks. You just can't get yourself cranked up to really think about those things, except for the things that are going to happen to you so you can be mentally prepared for it. Right. I think I may have precipitated that comment, at least when we got that area and started that. And I guess it really wasn't a complaint, Chuck, as much as just a statement that it's a drag, going through collecting urine for 24 hours and so forth. And I just wanted to toss it in that you sure hope that it's worthwhile, and I think it would be interesting to sit down and see what you're really doing with all that. Good. I think that's really needed because we're trying to do that right now with this, kind of, I'm cruised to tell you, what we really know about what happens to man, what we know from the Russian side of the thing as to what's happening or even there longer when I put the thing together and say, here's what we don't know and why we need to know it. Well, I think we understood, or I understood your need to work out the total body water, but the actual mechanics of how that fit into a 24-hour urine collection six times and all the blood drawing and how that all fit in the picture, the theoretical picture you were painting for us, I never understood that. Fair enough. You know, I think everybody understands all these things. You know, why don't we make a specific recommendation to explain. You know, all the flakers have a training plan which is set up about the time of the flakers and designated. It includes all kinds of things and the simulators and scientific briefings and everything else. And why is, why wouldn't the best way to do it would actually schedule the time for medical briefings early in the training program? Because I think if you all, kind of rest of it, if you all feel that the experiment's worthwhile doing, you want to get your protocol settled early in the game so you have all the equipment or whatever you need. Amen. Ready? Yes. Right. We'll be satisfactory tests. So I would suggest that maybe sometime it's going to be scheduled in the, in the crew training program early in the game. And I should take, because one of those things you've got to check off like systems briefings and everything else. And I should take that briefing should consist of a bit of the theoretical thing you're trying to do. Right. Followed by the mechanics. Let me protocol it. What that means to you. That's right. The mechanics of how you go about doing it and the number of punctures and where you're going to do it and how many urine samples and sort of things. Great. Just so you guys understand. Great. Okay. We'll do. I'd like to go back and pick up one then on the exercise area. You mentioned this in the debrief and you mentioned it again in the yesterday. But can you give me some idea and you said you missed. I remember the debriefing statements here. You commented that you missed one day on the way out and one day on the way back. And can you, can you say what you did in time? What the exercise consisted of what you did roughly in time. I know you won't know the minute or second or anything but as roughly as you can. And then what if you have any idea that you try and judge what you did as far as did you try and get a heart rate increase or did you try and judge your exercise level in any way. And this is particularly important for us in trying to separate out the effects that are inherent between the two of you are on the surface versus Stu who was in the spacecraft all the time. So we want to keep that and we want to get that straight if we can. Could you just sort of grieve the exercises for the way you did it. Maybe each of you have to do it because you probably did it differently. Well what we were shooting for was about a 10 minute period per day. Exclusive of the two days of lunar service activity for two of us. And Stu was going to try and get about a 10 minute period per day for including those days. The method of exercise during the 10 minute period was to use this extra gym device which we have. And to operate that in such a fashion that the old, what they call a big four, where you start with your legs and feet and two loops and your hands controlling the friction device from a crouch position to a full stretch out. And then do that several times. Then hold the fixed loops and use the legs and the movement ball loops. And then hold the fixed loop with the toes and use the biceps on the movement ball loops. That's the general pattern that we tried to follow. But we didn't make all of those time periods. We missed the first day out because of what we didn't have in schedule for the first day. Well it was in the flight plan but I don't think anybody's going to exercise the first day anyway. In fact it should never have been in the flight plan to exercise the first day. Pretty hard to get that in and end first day. Well you don't really need it in that first day anyway. You don't really need it in that first day. Well, in retrospect I think that it would probably alleviate some of the sore back muscles that first day could go ahead and turn it in my case. It was kind of like one of those things where they said, okay you want to exercise. Put in the flight plan and I said, yeah we've got to have in the flight plan and we won't do it. We're going to put it in before lunch every day before the mid meal of the day. That's how we get in there. Okay. You said X or GM or is it the X or genie? X or GM is a trade name. Yeah. We're both similar devices. It's the same thing. It's the friction one. Yeah. Okay. And so ten minutes a day is what you had programmed for the thing. Did you have any, did you feel that you really got a fair amount? Did you get up any increase in breathing rate or heart rate that you were aware of when you did it? Yeah. We didn't do it quantitatively but somebody. Yeah. I always tried to stop short of cracking a sweat. It's just not desirable to get all sweaty in the spacecraft. And I felt like I was pulling it somewhere around 10-15 minutes and I could feel the heart rate going up and the breathing going up. But I would never do it to the point of a sweat. Okay. And it's not a vigorous exercise. It's more of a tension exercise. Right. I put enough load on it where it was a hard pull but a slow pull. Right. Okay. Stu, did years go about that same weight in for the whole thing, even when you were a lot? I'd like to just summarize exercise in my case. I probably didn't exercise as much. In retrospect is I would have if I were doing it again. For various incentive reasons. One is, you know, you don't feel a need for the exercise. You just got to say, well, I'm going to go do this. And there were a couple of times that we got out the, you know, it says exercise period so we got out the exercise and allinated, have at it and not be doing something. I'd say, well, I'll put it over here and I'll get to it in a minute. And then, I know in one occasion several hours later I finally got around to getting it and doing some exercise on it. The, I'd say probably five to ten minutes was the length of time. I was strained pretty hard. I didn't work up a sweat, but you know, you use this thing and use it about any way you want. You can drag them through the ropes. They're really designed to where you hold and do an isometric first. And then go right from isometric into the isotonic and you get the whole smear. So I'd hold the whole pressure on the thing and strain against it. And, you know, you can strain as little or as hard as you want. I'd strain reasonably hard and then relax the tension and pull it up. What I'm trying to think, I'm sure that I missed one exercise period on the way out completely that Al and Abe got in. I didn't, no exercise at all the lunar orbit. The thinking of the extra gym was never even crossed my mind for those two days. And then in preparation for entry, I said, I'm really going to hit that on the way home. As it turned out, I barely got in the one exercise a day that we did on the way home. So I would say overall, I probably, or I'm sure I didn't hit the extra gym as much as I probably should have. Okay. I don't know how, from my point of view, at least, how you, in a case like this, we're trying to correlate the relationship with the exercise a day at 90, for example. And its benefits are like they're with respect to the lunar surface period, which is over 30 hours. I just take the work load, the basic work load, they're long enough to differentiate. Put that exercise thing down the noise level. That's competition down the noise level as far as the two of us are concerned. I think that's probably very right now. And I think the thing we want to know is, you know, was Stu trying to make up for it in some way with exercise in the space brand. Because he obviously, I mean, there's no way he could make up for what you were doing on the lunar surface. He was trying to, but he had a real busy flight point. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he could do it. And this is what I wanted to find out was he trying to do a lot more or something during that time. No, I wasn't. I think that'd be a difficult thing to try to do, really. I don't know. You're going to maybe with the longer period in lunar orbit, C&P may not be quite as busy or maybe I suspect he probably will be. I think it's going to be difficult to get in my exercise there. But, no, I wasn't. It's going to break between individual. Yeah. So obvious that Stu's greater interest were in running a spacecraft. For example, a B23 stick a lot of time. It was a lot. That was the kind of thing I'm talking about. But if you're going to get the individuals to try to exercise and respond to exercise, then you're going to have to get to really explain the benefits of their criticisms all of them. Right. Is it really an individual thing? That's right. And we haven't tried to set any numbers of times that you do anything like that. And so we need to really carefully look at that as an area. Okay. Ed, while I'm adding one that came up yesterday, when you guys were talking about Myrtle reminded me of the promise that you had in flight with the urine, kinking of the urine hose and so forth, how much time did you make a conscious effort in your own particular case because it's important to chase down your status post-flight here. The time that you had the in-suit urine device on, did you have it? Me? Well, it wasn't my hose. It was kinking. Right. Right. It was out. Yeah. You had it twice out, was it? Yeah. Proud of you all the time. All the time. We had it on. We had it on. I guess we have to look back on the transcript. It looked like it was a flight plan to know when we took it off the first time. We all unsuited at the same time, which was about six hours, seven hours into the flight. Somewhere in there. And we took the UCTA zone, PDI morning, and we took them off only when we got back to the spacecraft after talking. And it was all for those who were curious. Only. And I've never experienced any discomfort. I've never had any problems whatsoever that I've ever done. We discussed preflight. No symptoms of any sort. Great. Well, it looks like, you know, we didn't have any, and you did well. Did you feel that? That's a, I don't know, we might just get out of the way. On fluid intake, it sounds like you all thought the water was great. So you were, you were drinking well. Did you, were you trying to force fluid? Were you trying to consciously force fluid? Yeah. I think, you know, in my case anyhow, I tried to drink, take a drink out of the water gun about every time I went by. I did find that I preferred the juices to water. And surprisingly enough, as much as I did not care for the juices, preflight. Particularly, I didn't pay them or anything. We were drinking a couple of juices per meal, a large portion of the time. I was. And in addition, taking the shots from the water gun about every time I go by it. I forced myself to drink the water. Not that it tasted bad or anything, but just to keep the fluid intake up. And so I would, I would drink water, you know, like it says, every time you pass the water gun, you say, well, I think I'll try some of that. And one person would take a drink of water and pass it around and put it back up. Did, is there any chance that you, you stayed in the D-ring? You, you thought you drank about half as many juices as they did. I'd say that's probably a good average. No, I'd say probably say a third less. A third less? Yeah, I'd drink two juices. Yeah, I'd drink two occasionally. Toward the, toward the end, I was, I was drinking two more than I was. Because a lot of times you'd drink a cocoa and a juice and not bypass the cocoa. And I just drink a juice. So I'd say probably, and this is a wag, but I'd say a third less juice than they did. Well, I think I kind of decided I was going to try and do everything I could to end up, and it has been chambers I could at the end of the mission, which included keeping the food intake and the food intake up, as well as the exercise. And it's generally what we try to do. You did a great job. Well, you had to try to get two juices per meal, most of the time. There was a question here that I did for you, particularly. Did you eat more? Do you feel while you were, while they were with you, Alan and were with you in the space branch and when you were eating drink better? I saw in your food thing. Well, I'd say, yeah. Excuse me. Go ahead. I saw in your food comments here that you had difficulty, you know, the food preparation thing, you'd have to prefer it if you had some, some canned things you could have opened quickly and gotten to when you were along that way. And I can surely understand that. I think that's what I'm going to look at. Well, that's the way I did eat. Because we had them there. I guess it didn't come out right because that's the way I did eat in the normal. I would say, I'd say the answer to your question would be yes, that I ate more when they were in there, but the idea of people being together is nothing in that. It's a time factor. Yeah. During the coast phase, you had more time to, you know, to worry about eating. During that lunar orbit phase, I didn't have any time at all. And, you know, any extra time, and particularly with the troubleshooting, the high con and so forth. So, I didn't have the inclination or want to go to the trouble of trying to mix up a meat or a meal as such. And I didn't much like that going to all that trouble anyway. So, I opened up, you know, can that chicken salad, I think it was. And I had that for breakfast and then a wet pack. And, you know, that's the type of food that you can really get to in a hurry and eat. Right. So, I wouldn't say overall that probably ended up eating too much less, but it was a little different rather than sitting down and mixing up a rehydratable pack. So forth. So, the total amount you don't think was any different because you're there, but it was just different kinds of food. It may have been a little less and better. Do you, do you personally feel that you know the weight loss is involved here? You know, yours, you know, that they, you got one pound each year and you got a 10 pound one. I heard you comment about the scale yesterday too. But, do you have any personal reason why you think there's that much difference in the weight loss? I mean, as you know, that you personally tried to account for it other than food intake, water intake or anything of that sort of thing? No, I'm not sure that there's anything magic about zero G or the fly. I would suspect I'd probably lost several pounds if I had eaten that same, same menu and sat right here. I probably think that I was a certain pounds overweight when I went into the flight. As a matter of fact, you know, I'm not a big eater and during most of my, during most of the time you come up on training, I drink a can of sago and a can of a juice for breakfast and then I eat a sandwich for lunch and, you know, maybe drink two or three cans of beer and eat a sandwich and eat it. Yeah. You know, I can go four days on a menu like that and I don't know how many calories all that adds up to, but you know, it's not a really a high calorie diet and I would say that that pretty much was my diet for three months prior to going into quarantine was just about what I, what I stated there. And then when we got into quarantine, well then I started eating more for breakfast and eating a bigger meal in the evening. And so I think I probably was three or four pounds. How are we going in, going into the flight? And so I, I think the weight loss may be overplayed a little bit because I think I had a few extra pounds and then plus I don't think that maybe we picked the right, the right weight up on the, on the rolling scales, but that's native here and there, you know what? Well, we can probably show you something about that from when we get your lab and the material pulled together. I think we'd be able to give you a better handle on that as to whether, you know, it really was something that had to do with the zero G state or not. We hope we'll be able to do that. So we'll try. Well, why do you just add a general comment, which I think reflects the consensus here that with respect to the food in general, the type of food, the method by which it was packaged and so on and, and the degree to which we liked it, just like it was primarily a function of the level of activity in the flight plan. But the business of going into the pantry and taking time to select foods and drinks and so on is fine. During the quiet periods of the coast. Things like, like spoon, spoon packages are good. The level of activity is not too high, but certainly the level of activity is high. The web packs and the cans, and that's what I want to take time for. I think this is a general comment that really reflects our consensus. It was, it was a time consuming part of the day to prepare meals, get them all, get them out of the food box, get them all laid out, cut all the tops off of them, get all the water into them, get a massage. Get the pill back in there. It took a lot of time. It's an effort. Right. And, you know, it's a lot easier to open up a can and a web pack and then, then you, then you think it's a lot of trouble to mix up the juice, but you know, that way you got your meal and you're through and you're on your way. Right. Okay. The cooking problem, of course, is still a problem, which has been fairly, fairly common, I guess that's right. Yeah, I think, I think if you go play time, you don't mind spending time. So, it's a matter of fact, it's a very pleasant hour. Yeah. It gets rid of that type very effectively. But I would say in my case, watching these guys eat, you know, they went right down the menu and so I thought, you know, I really, I really should do that, but I just didn't have inflammation to eat that much. You know, even though you're knowing your own mind, you know, hey, you got to do this, you know, and you ought to keep yourself, you know, eat just as much as you possibly can. I just couldn't get around to doing that. In fact, several times I'd mix the food up, then by the time I'd eat a couple of packages, you know, I just couldn't get to the, to the third package and so I'd put it back in the pantry. Well, Stu, one of the things that's going to come out of that is somebody, you know, reading the, the, the, the briefing itself. The obvious question comes up, okay, was your loss of it, your lack of appetite itself, was it just plain lack of appetite or did you really have any, any discomfort as far as the gut was concerned at all, anything that, that you felt was pathological in, in your loss of appetite due to the environment or anything? No. No. I don't think there's any hanging out. I could say I think it, it boils down to a lot of just too much food. You know, you, you bundle up one of those meals and there's just too much there to eat. Were any of you ever thirsty in flight? You were dry. Yeah, I, I, you were dry quite a bit. You know, you'd have a sensation of dryness and you'd want, and water, you know, or juice would make you want some water. Yeah. Did you, while we're at it, we might just wipe out the water. Did you guys drink the water in your suits? The EVA? Yeah. Drank all of his, I just drank about three or nothing. Out of three. The first one I don't know how much of mine I drank, I thought I'd get the bag, but apparently the walls of the bag got around the drink tube and I didn't get it all out because it drained down around my neck during the sleep period. Okay. I had a leaky one also when I took out 20 of these. Okay. Did you fill them up again and when you went out second, you know, and you drank about, you think you drank about 30 years both times? I'd say, yeah, I didn't really stop and drink too much. Yeah. And I drank all of mine in the second EVA, and I can't remember whether I drank it all or not. If I didn't, there may be some still in it. Okay. All right. Hey, one other comment on what we're on there eating far from here. We ran completely out of these bite-sized packages, you know. And to me, that was the best thing we had. These little, you know, turkey sandwiches, cheese sandwiches, and that sort of thing. Because that was a no sweat operation. You just clip that off and a can of juice and you could go at it. So I really liked those and I ate all those generally that I could get my hands on. And we ran out of those. Well, we ran out and booked everything else too. Just about it. No, not really. I had all kinds of food. But if I may make a comment, let's do it in mine. About what he said eating and drinking habits. This flight plan is really something that he worked on and developed for the flight. It's a busy flight plan. It's a full one. And it was my impression that he was more interested in being sure that the flight plan was done properly than the needy. Oh, yeah. I think that affected the trade degree, which again gets back the level of activity versus the, if you guys can get a little, for example, those drink bags, get a little diaphragm on the end. Just stick over a needle and pump the water in that way and shake it up, pull the plug out and bring it out of the same deal. It would be a lot easier for those drinks. I mean, for the juices and things, you mean? Oh, cutting. Yeah. So that you don't end up having to sort of feed, you've got to drink the whole damn thing once you get it done. You see, you've got to drink back and you've got a little moral thing that's all sucked in and plastic is all pulled down. Right. Exactly right. First of all, you can't get out of the nozzle without any leak. And you get it all done. You've got to go cut the other end. And I was just thinking maybe it might be an easier way to put a diaphragm fitting on there that you could stick over a hypodermic type of thing and get the water in that way. It might be a little bit quicker way to do it. Okay. I don't even do it to make it easier. It's going to help increase the consumption. Right. Particularly during busy time periods. Okay. Could we get you, this is going to involve just really Alan and Ed. We'd like to have you describe as well as you can the things that you did with your biostromantation harnesses because it's very hard for us to be sure exactly what happened. We don't have that stuff back yet. We're going to set it up. We've got to cut it off a plan of troubleshoot it. And as I understood, the thing that happened with yourself is from our point. The action is not the word. You want the action? The action is not the word. Yeah. Okay. Well you said it in some of the words too. But what, from our point of view, what happened with your particular harnesses, everything was fine when everybody left the MSOB. Okay. When you got into the spacecraft, right after you got apparently when you were getting cinched down somehow because we had about three minutes or so after you were in the couch of good data on you. Then we began to get erratic. They began to want, the baseline began to want all over the place. That continued to get worse and worse. And pretty soon it was going this full scale which was totally unreadable. So the question was okay. It was a question about hatch closure at that point in time. I decided right then, I said well hell we're going to go without that because I'm sure it's a sensor. And the only way to get at it anyway, we asked you then to try and press on those things. If that wouldn't do it, if that wouldn't recede it, then the first opportunity would be when you got your action in flight. Now we don't know why, but it came back, it was gone still. When you went over Australia, as you came back up on the states magically, there we had data. And we went back to the MSOB from the firing room to catch that pass. And there you were. It was beautiful just as if nothing had ever happened. And you hadn't done a damn thing because then we asked them. Now as we understand when you looked at that sensor then, that you did have some material that had leaked out from underneath it. And we understand that you cleaned up and replaced that sensor. Is that right? We didn't replace the sensor now. Okay, just to clean it off, refill it, put a new sticky back on it and put it back on. Yeah, okay. That was the second day in the flight. Yeah, the second day in the flight. Right, yeah. That was the first time that we really, and that we asked you to do that then because we thought we'd get it out of the way before you got into the, okay. And then you had another. It also changed the adapter. You see WG adapter because then one time on the flight they said my column wasn't very good. Yeah, your column was terrible, right? Yeah, spare adapter and so it changed that. Exactly. And that was, I don't know. But that was pretty early too. I think it was the first day. Yeah, I think it was the first day. The student, all that was the Lord. That was everything to do with the launch problem because of course we didn't get it. No. No. And we had a respiration. You can see respiration, but we didn't have that. That's good. Yeah, yeah. But we didn't have any CT. Yeah, we didn't have any CT. We didn't have any ratio. That's right, good. Yeah, can you correlate the reappearance of your EKG signal with any flight lag today that you might have been doing it? I sure can't. I'm just as simplified about that as you were. I tried to press it to the suit or anything. It happened. I can't feel anything to the suit. Well, you were free then though. You had your helmet gloves off. It was one hour and every minute's GTU. I don't know if that brings any bells to you. How was the buzzer on at that time when we were moving around with the bus insertion checklist and this movement in the couch? I imagine getting some things that pulled out and still had some stuff. It's probably, it just got to be that you were probably just, it was in the cinching down in the couch that it probably loosened that edge of that sensor somehow a little bit. And I don't know why. Or put a cramp in a lead or brought it to contact with something else. Yeah. Because it sure came back fine after that. Okay, in the second time, what else did you have with yours out from your point? What else did you do to the thing? The only other thing I noticed was about the next to the last day that the thread coupling between the sensor line, the sensor harness, and the belt. Yeah, on top of the signal condition. Yeah. It stripped the threads. I could get it to hold a little bit. And apparently the signal was fine, then it would slip off. It came back beautifully when you tell me. But then when I unsuited at the end, I noticed that was loose. So, if it has a brand of strip on it, it's probably going to crack down too hard. Excuse me. Did you routinely disconnect that connector at the signal conditioner for sleep or for bowel movements? Not for sleep. For bowel movements and for swapping out and cleaning out process. Anytime you pull your clothes off, do the change clothes, or put on the LCG, or use the blue bags, whatever. We all want to do them. Okay. And then you didn't replace anything. You didn't have to reseed any sensor after that. That was the only other thing you had was the sensor. It was the only time I took the sensor off. Was that first? That call was correct because we took it off. We didn't see the secret to the electric line. Right. Same with that. Okay. How about yours in it? The only thing that I replaced was that one sensor. Which one? And it was the whole sensor? I don't mean to replace the sensor. We pulled it off, cleaned it out, refilled it with the electric light, put it back on. Just the same out there. No doubt. Okay. You did not take the harness out of the kit and replaced the whole thing. Okay. Because that's it. We thought you had done that. You called and asked for that, but there wasn't time to do it. Glad you could do what we said to me when you guys said that. We took the chance that the real problem was simply the sensor and the electric light and that's what it was. That's exactly what it was. We couldn't affect the worst time in the standpoint of timeline. Is that right? We're just getting ready to go into the lab. You know, and boy, everybody's all asking elbows and suits and underwear and gear and books and everything all over the place. I was sitting here hand-dressed. I didn't want to go any further till we got a go on it. We couldn't get the hind bit right up for you guys to look at it. Right. And so at least one minute in time left. So we changed that when I went out and dressed. Yeah. Do you know when you came up there, though, the data, you gave us about two minutes when the high gain did lock on. And we got two minutes of data and it still showed the loose sensor. Now, what did you do the second time? You came up and asked us how the data looked and we said it looked poor yet. We gave you no more of the suiting to change out the harness. I don't recall exactly the sequence of events. When I called and asked for you to check it, as far as I know we did nothing after that except make sure everything was cinched down and went ahead and dressed. Did you do something with the fluid in there? Yeah, but I had already done it at that point. I changed the electrolyte. When I called and asked you guys to check it, I did nothing after that except just make sure everything was secure. Yeah, because you see the first time you call the data was poor and that was the basis for the call to change out the whole harness. Because we said, well, it wasn't that sensor and we didn't have time to talk to you because LOS was coming up. So we said, go ahead and change out the whole thing. But whatever you did subsequently corrected it because it came back beautifully. So we assumed you'd just change out the harness. Let me swing a little hole in the water. Yeah. Well, singing hell as you mentioned it, you know, I just can't remember precisely when we changed it. But I'm thinking that it was already changed at that point. Okay. And it was just the lower structure. It was the lower structure. The same as the same as LOS. Remember they changed. It was electrolyte that was replaced. Yeah. Just taking it off and putting it back. Just sticking it back. Okay. And you think you did that before LOS? Yeah. He probably did. What we're thinking now happened probably took a while before to see properly. And when he came around, it was good. Good. Well, his state stayed good then. And we were having trouble with yours going. And you began to get this laundry baseline on yours again before the, you know, after we got into the limit. So there was a question in our minds about it. Is there any way we could do it to, to get that better, you know, to make that better? We were trying to find, trying to figure some way. Could you reach around when you were in the suit? Is there any way you could get at that thing if you took like after the EVA? He ended up picking the helmet off. All right. Could you get down into the, into the suit here? You really have to have the upper torso garment, the upper part of the torso garment clear the body in order to be able to feel that. In order to feel that way, you can definitely tell, you know, the other guy goes through the backs if we're around in front. Then we tried that on the ground to see if you can do that. That's pretty hard to do. The most you can do is press the button. After all that time of quarantine, that's pretty dangerous too. Yeah. Yeah. Depends on where your hands is. Yeah. All right. Forget the EVA. Just keep pulling with my sensory. You've got two hours to stop that. Oh, okay. The thing we got from the sleep, which I think is fairly well covered. If you have any to add to that, we'd like you to. What we got out of it is that all of you pretty well never really had a solid long sleep period. That it was broken and it was things like a couple of hours at a time or something. And I gather that the reasons for that vary. You had some difficulty with wanting to feel some pressure in the end's case. I know. I just now mentioned this too. And Stu didn't like the couch. And then he ended up in the limb. The thing was being the suits all the time and then the tilt of the limb too. Both of those things probably had a lot to do with sleep activity. Is there anything else that you think you can add? Did you feel that you were arrested enough to do the task even with the sleep that you had? Yeah, but I think we're working on reserves. Yeah. I did too. So there were two days that we felt sloppy. One was the second day out after the excitement of the launch and all that activity. Becoming it, becoming acclimated to the new environment. So we felt like we weren't really clinging along too well on the second day out. Now the day after T.E.I. although we all apparently slept better after T.E.I. that night I guess was probably the terms of continuously by the best night we had. Still, the next day we felt like we were not really organized. We gave things down but the little things were not being handled as neatly as we would like to receive. So these are the only two days we felt we would work on top of the blood plant. I think, Chuck, I feel that for no longer than we work for nine days, that you can get along on a fairly small amount of sleep in just your reserves and your discipline and everything else makes you do the job properly. But in my case, I felt very strongly that I was on reserves that physically I was going downhill. And it was of some concern to me that I wasn't getting enough sleep. I knew I wasn't getting enough sleep. And yet I felt fairly wide awake and alert on most of the days except the two days I was talking about. But sleeping to me was a very insecure experience. How do you mean insecure? Because of this wanting something to bring. I don't want to feel like you. The best I can say, feel like you weren't a bad. Yeah. Wanting to feel some pressure or to be lying on something. It was a pleasant thing. I knew we'd get back to that. It was really a pleasant experience to be in zero G during the daytime, I thought. It wasn't quite a pleasant experience at night. Well, did you feel that brings up the scene? Did you feel, I gather from MAL's comments in particular, this business of using your legs and your feet to try and hang on to something, which has been described by other guys to it at some length. Did you have a feeling that that was the cause of this muscle business in your back more than, because you know, that's been described and they've never been able to really put a hand on to why they felt they had that. They've had this sort of feeling that if they could just stretch that real good, it'd be great. You think it is due to the fact that you were trying to drop on something? Thank you, Jack. Yeah, as soon as that's what I analyzed it after the first couple of days, I think we discussed it as a matter of fact. So we started exercise and then deliberately take time to relax, not only in the sleep room, but also try to adapt ourselves to a relaxed state during the awake periods in the seats or on the optics or the tunnel or something. And after the second day, it kind of went away. Yeah, that small of the back problem was gone after a couple of days. And in fact, I was kind of surprised at that, woke up that first morning, and my back had bothered me during the night. And I didn't realize that Alan Ed's head back was bothering him at that time too, you know. And I said, you know, I really didn't get that much sleep, but this sounds crazy as all hell, because I can lay on that big fine king-sized bed at the house, and if I get a lot of sleep, you know, if I lay there for, say, 10 or 11 hours, why the small of my back bothers me. Sure. And I said to these guys, I said, hey, this is crazy. I didn't sleep that much last night, but my back feels just like I got about 11 hours sleep. And they said, well, mine does too, and then we got to talking about it. But it was there, and it was very conscious to me that first night. In fact, I thought probably my back kept me going to sleep as much as the new environment, rather than the zero G, because I was always conscious of my back bothers me. Did you ever think about taking aspirin or anything to do anything with that? Did you ever take aspirin at all? For them? For the eighth? I think until the time we discussed it, I was convinced that the reason I was feeling bad in the back was just not urinating. We were so damn long during that whole year. I wondered if you went through that. I did think that. And then after we started discussing it, I said, well, that may not be the problem, or if so, that's just part of the problem. Everybody's got it. Everybody's got it. And I agree without it. It has something to do with the way you try to use your feet to stabilize yourself. And I found, I believe, although I couldn't see myself, I believe that when I was relaxing in the spacecraft and G, I was in a curved position. And it felt good to throw the shoulders back and straighten out, or to take the extra gym and get some tension on those back muscles. You tend to assume, sorry, it's sort of like a fetal position. If you just totally relax, your legs will tend to float up and come up in a sort of a semi-c. And your hands would tend to float out about like this, and your back hands could bend some, so it tends to assume that kind of a position. If you just let all your muscles go, so you don't have any muscle fold on. Oh, I tell you, one of the good things for that back, too, is just exactly that position. Just get yourself up like this. And that first night, when my back was bothering me, I tried to sleep a good bit. I'd reach down and grab a hold of my booties. And I would lay there like that with pulling some pressure on my legs. And it would really help. That smaller your back, yeah. I found both things, either straighten it out to put some tension on the back muscles, or as Stu says, double on it, and pull the other way. Stidgy. How about when you got back onto the carrier now, and you got into a bed, then for the first time back on a 1G environment? Did you have any feeling? Did you have the feeling that you were real heavy, that you were sinking into the bed? Did you have that when you were on a table or anything? That's right. None of you experienced that. How about weight of clothes? Did you have a weight injury? No. Pants were too heavy, or they were falling or anything like that when you first got back. The only thing I can remember about laying down on the bunk was it was a good relief to be able to lay on your stomach. You know, generally, I don't know which way I sleep most back or stomach or what, but you always have the impression, no matter in what position you are in the spacecraft, you're on your back. And so, I remember thinking of that. The first thing I laid down on the bunk was I stressed out on my back, and I said, gee, I've been in this way for nine days. I think I'll turn over. So I rolled over on my stomach. It felt pretty good. Did any of you have any dreams at all? Did you ever dream? I did, but I couldn't for the life of a bird call. Well, that doesn't matter. Yeah, I had dreams. But you didn't have dream activity, at least. Yeah. Yeah, I think of that heavy feeling, Chuck. The only time I noticed it was after we had landed was telling the spacecraft, we had a strap and the spacecraft was falling around a little bit, not too much. Got down, the LED rode away in the first couple of steps. Combination of the rocking spacecraft and being 1G again. For perhaps, you know, 30 seconds, no more than answering. That was my experience too. I started doing some deep deep bends right away for maybe 10-12 of those babies. And I was right back at home again, and I continued to feel that way. No muscle soreness, no feeling heavy or anything. Did you, this feeling that you experienced when you first went down the LED was that, was that all over? Was that just heavy as some of the legs or did you just feel heavy all over for me? Just heavy all over. How about when you first got some G on re-entry? Did you have a sensation? You had a lot more G than you really ran a stream. You go through that. My right thing over to G was I bust him. These two guys were... You know that. Do you like that one? No, everybody else has done it. No, I think you become very sensitive to G. Like even, even all age in the spacecraft, you know, or... Well, that'd be, guess on time you'd really feel a G would be, as well as the SPS engine, of course. But on entry, certainly, you know, if you're going through 1G, it certainly doesn't seem like 1G. It's your sensitive to the G. He said he said I wasn't quite as busy during that initial period as they were. I didn't have tracking tasks to keep me occupied. I probably felt it more or was conscious of it more than they were. And it felt to me like one hell of a load. In particular, my one task was to be watching the time. I couldn't get my arm up to see the watching until after a peak G let off. And about 4 or 5G, I could pull my arm up and take a look at it. And I had the same sensation that Al did. Right after I got out of the couch, I felt very, very heavy. And then with just a little bit of motion, it seemed to go away. And I'd say it kind of described a very sharp rise. The return to normal was a very sharp rise and then an asymptotic to 1G, because I still stumbled a couple of times getting out of the helicopter. But I felt fine, except I just didn't have the sureness of footing that I would like to have. And that didn't last as far as footing. You know, that's a interesting thing that the Russians had after their AP Day might be able to answer real mark mobility problems that lasted for days. And you didn't act. We've never had anything of that. We've always had some initial footing problem. You know, just getting used to being back in a 1G burn. And then you're on a shift too, which isn't moving around. And I just didn't ask for any of you for longer than a few minutes really getting out of the house. No, it felt lightheaded at all. No, neither died lightheaded. How about putting your feet in the right place? Did you feel like when you were walking as you were walking normally? That your steps were normal and everything? You didn't have to worry about where your feet were? No, I think that up to the point we got in the MQF, I felt that that took a little care to make sure my foot was going where it was supposed to be going. But it wasn't out of the ordinary, you know, really severe anything. No. It seemed to be improving very rapidly from a very heavy state for the first 30 to 45 seconds after I got out of the couch to within an hour or so after I was in the MQF, the footing was very short. But I do remember stumbling once going into the MQF from the helicopter and I didn't see anything stumble over. It just stumbled. You know, I think how you do that right now though. If you're going to walk out of that door with a television camera on you and you're going to walk up to the front steps, you'd be more conscious of your footing. You'd be more conscious of your footing whether or not you'd been in zero G or not. If you're carrying a load, you're going to look very carefully where you're sitting. You want to get knocked down? Yeah, and you in particular know that, you know, you've just come back from a flight and people are going to be watching how you're walking and all of this stuff. So, you know, it's in your mind and, you know, you've got to walk this 30 feet to the MQF. So just naturally you're more conscious of where you're going to put your foot. Well, I may have psyched myself into stumbling for that reason, but nevertheless I did stumble. It's better the fact that I was conscious of the fact that TV cameras were on. Did you notice any distortion of your facial features at all? Did you weep? When you look at the TV, the inflight TV, as we watched you, you know, inside the spacecraft, you get the impression that your faces are not like they are now, that they're much rounder, that's a thing that you see on the TV. Is that true? Did you feel that when you were looking at each other? No, but I observed it when I saw a picture of us taking from that TV. I didn't think anything about it until you mentioned it. It looks quite round. You look much different than you do now. It takes, it's very round. But you weren't aware of that looking at each other. You know, Al Bean has made a comment of that in the 12 report that after he got into orbit, he looked around and everybody looked 20 pounds heavier. And I remember that. And I looked at these guys, you know, and they looked just as bad as them. I remember that comment from Al Bean's report, and I really didn't notice it. They were the 12th, who I guess has been the one that was the most impressed with that of anybody. And they know that they felt even that they had redness of the face for several hours after they first achieved orbit. Well, it's a general feeling of focus on this. Yes. But I mean, just to look at a person and see his face puffed up, I didn't notice that at all. Maybe it was just life of observation. I remember for the first five hours when we were two busy doing the other day. Did you have any sensation that in the first 24 hours in flight that you urinated more than you normally would than you did the rest of the flight time? I don't know. That's a hard thing to remember, but do you have any idea that you did that at all? I know that first one. I never used my UCTA. That first one was a whopper, I know that. Of course, you get a lot of excitement to make it a whopper anyway, so it's hard. Now, no real... No, we didn't one way the other one had this here. Okay. Can you comment on the work that you did EVA out on the lunar surface as far as what you felt based on versus your ground training? Do you think it was harder, easier, about the same? And secondly, as a second question, did either of you feel really physically tired to the point that you knew that you were really tired during the EVAs, even going out and coming? I felt, of course, it was an order of magnitude easier than 1G training. Just no comparison at all as we expected it to be. And as far as being tired, I think I had already made up my mind that I did not want to sweat on the moon, that I was going to keep the water up and I was going to keep rested enough so that I didn't sweat for consumables and for fatigue purposes. So I never really felt tired. I did feel occasionally that I was approaching the point where I'd have to have more cooling or take a break, but it wasn't because of a tired feeling. It was the desire to program and plan consumables the way we wanted to. And not be hot. So I felt in my mind that I was stopping short of the point of fatigue as a direct plan of not wanting to use up consumables. How about you? Well, it's kind of hard to equate the pre-flight stuff with the flight stuff. First of all, you're not using the LCG and the pre-flight stuff. You're lifting essentially 1G pieces of equipment around and so on. So it's pretty hard to equate the two. As to whether it was harder or easier to do the flight. The one with the standpoint, the total workout point. But certainly, the standpoint of ease of mobility is a lot easier to get around. I think you travel a lot faster and easier when the service is in general common. DBA-1, I did not feel uncomfortable at any time at all. DBA-2, I think the fact that I was unaware of the workload was manifested primarily in a respiration rate as opposed to anything else. I didn't feel as though the body heat was going up too much. The deep body heat was going up too much. I think this is primarily because of the circulating fluid in the LCG. And I was not aware of any profuse from his sweating. Just a little thing to change of sweating, a blush, whatever you want to call it, was when I went to the medium flow on the water. I think, in course, you're not really aware of an increase in heart rate, but you should specifically stop and measure it somehow. So I think to me, the thing that was most obvious about the increased workload was the respiration rate. And at times, I think we suggested that climbing the steepest grade of the crater, the cone that we stopped and decorated. I think you all suggest that. Right. Right. But the standpoint of being tired to the degree where we didn't want to press on after a short respiration rate, no way I didn't feel that. At any time, until after the two days was over, we moved back into the command module. It really felt like I was behind the talker as far as the total workload. Well, we'll try and give you some firm feeling for what happened with your EVAs. When we do this later, you know, we show you actually what, you know, you did have some times where you both got heart rates that were up in 150 years. And this is why we felt, and your respiratory rates were very audible. And we didn't have a respiration trace on you at that time, as you know, but you did have very audible respiratory rates. And it was obvious that you were increasing those. And now I think you began to store, I think the thing is you kept yours on men for a long time. And then when you did turn up to medium flow, you just left it there a short period of time and it didn't kick your rate down as much because you still were maintaining some of that heat in there now. It wasn't enough to make you sweat up here. And then when you started doing that, turning it on a little bit longer, each time you just settle right back down. You didn't have any trouble with it at all. But both of you came down very well. When you would rest, your rates dropped down. And that's contrary to what happened on 12, where they didn't drop down when they rested. And yours did very well. They just dropped. They'd come right on down as soon as you stopped doing that activity. So that's it. You have a feeling that you could have, but you have a feeling, any recommendation about extending EVAs now? I mean, you feel it would be possible with proper consumables, of course, that you could, that it's physically possible to do that? I sure do that. The thing that bothered me was the worrying about consumables. I knew knowing that we were getting a higher metabolic load, the higher heart rate, more oxygen consumption going out come greater and that I was spending more time on between minimum and intermediate cooling because we were rushing, deliberately rushing to try to make up time. I started worrying about consumables, especially in the water in the oxygen. And I felt that was a limiting factor. I didn't feel that I was a limiting factor. Just the oxygen in the water I was consuming were bothering me. Well, we tried to give you the word that, you know, that you were pretty fat on consumables really at the time. We thought you were trying to save consumables, obviously. Yeah, and understandably so. And so we wanted you to know that you had enough and you could go to medium flow without really getting yourself in a hole was the thing we wouldn't even know. And if you did that, I spent some more time on between minimum and intermediate healing. You did. Yeah. I'll go down. Yeah. You both did. I think that the comment is like the comment about how the workload is expected to the two-day period. I wouldn't want to see a crew ever plan to do any more than we did in those two days. As far as I'm concerned, that's about as heavy a workload as anybody ought to do. And certainly if you're going to go out for a long period of EVA, you're going to go out for a long period of resting. And make sure somehow that they get the rest. Yeah. Just allowing the time doesn't necessarily sure rest. Well, tell me if you had, you know, in the, in the limb, I, I gather one of the things that you think would help, of course, would be getting out of suit. That certainly would help if you could get out of suit in the limb. No question about that. If you had something for sleep, would you take it? Wouldn't you guys have taken the limb if you had had something for sleep in things? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think I don't want to advise her. You don't take that kind of medication. You're in the ground. It's an individual thing. It's quite an obvious way in it. You know, it just depends on it. Right. Everything's as closely, especially if you can't really grab an environment. It's probably the way everybody would. Right. So if you have people that do that in the ground, you can help them. I prefer to see us using more natural means of getting a sleep as opposed to an artificial. You'd like to ask something to sleep off of what you're saying? Back to that again. I think that's a big thing. As far as I was going to say. Yeah. I keep on coming up. Good role. You couldn't roll around the hammock and then the neck ring would be back like that. Yeah. There was one thing, Chuck, about fatigue. The only thing that I felt fatigued, any muscle that I felt, the tape was a darned hand muscle in the right hand. Because of the blood. Because you were fighting that blood. Yeah. And working the core tubes, getting unscrewing the core tubes. One of them I couldn't get by myself. Getting the caps off of them. That was very fatiguing. That arm gave out. How about when you're carrying a barbell out there and you're getting this thing? You said you had to do it well. Well, that was tiring. It just because it's so cumbersome and it's flopping all around. But I eventually put it across my arms like that. And it just decided from the workload of carrying it out, it was no problem. It was heavy. Was the weight seem different? Because you commented at the time and it sounded and it looked like you were having trouble getting out there when I think, was it the weight of it or was it just the fact that it was vibrating and it was sort of like a fidget line? It was mostly the vibration of it, just flopping that. However, I think that it was heavier than I expected from the 1.6 G mock up. But we had never carried it that far in training. And I think we made that recommendation that at least once the guys on a carry up the whole way. But it was primarily the flopping of those weights on the end that were giving me trouble. Okay. Let's get the, I gathered it on this bowel movement thing, the preps and so forth. You had a good comment in there that went fairly well. You all did the same thing. We knew preflight anyway. How did it work out though? And the thing, do you remember? Can you just tell us each one how you went? I gathered it but almost to the end without having one according to a comment. Yeah. Where did you go? Where did you go? You went to the morning of the 8th day. I went to the morning of the 8th day. To the morning of the 8th day it was the first month. And that's the only one I assumed. Yeah. I didn't plan it that way. What I wanted to do was to have one bowel movement before we went to the surface. Yeah, remember. So that would take care of that period of time. And I went around with a bag on my panty for about 12 hours. Hopefully I can do something and never did. And at one point I even wished that we had all accident important to help me do that. I'm not sure whether that's a good idea or not but it sure seemed like it at the time. And I was really concerned that I'd need to have a bowel movement while we were on the surface. And I got through that period, figured well we got it made. It could be good to get back to the main module and use the bag. And I still couldn't. It was the 8th day. And that was the walker. Did you ever get any clamps or anything like that? No. I got that service at all. Right. I wasn't uncomfortable. I didn't even have a feeling of fullness. I'm not you out. I would have your cycle now. I had one and a half bags on the 3rd day before us. And another bag on about the 7th day. 7th day. 7th day. And no problem. There were normal consistency in tourist parks. That's really it. I agree with you. We've got to find it better. The whole hygiene thing in this thing is so our taking is unbelievable. We just got to do better now if we're going to keep people in space. The whole mess as a big man. And the ability to clean up afterwards and affect is the ability to maintain personal hygiene throughout the flight. We need better stuff. Let's do. How about you? I went to 80 hours. It was the first one. I remember distinctly because I said between 80 and 81 hours approaching LOI while I'm going to do it. Which pleasantly surprised me too while we're on the on the gory subject because pre-flight I anticipated that I might have to use the bag more than that because in my normal course of events it's very common for me to hit the head at least twice a day. So I was pleasantly surprised that I got to 80 hours. And then I had one other one and it was after TDI. I guess the next day after TDI and I don't remember what time frame it was. Yeah, I guess it was. It was the day after TDI. Okay, I don't remember the GT right now. I can't even associate with anything except these guys and their guests. I don't know what else is going on at that time. Yeah, these guys. Okay. When did you first start to use the nose drops? How far into that? Do you remember what date? Third date. Three, I think. Third date. And do you feel that that was a, I'm a little bit confused about your discreet, your describing as fullness and still do you feel that this was a thing that was associated with this fullness that was due to the weightlessness or do you think it was an oxygen effect? Just due to the drying and so forth. I never felt that dry. And at the time I thought it could have been either or both. So I just treated it symptomatically with a couple of, about one drop in each nostril that was completely infected for the next 10 to 12 hours. Well, you could hear it. This is a fairly routine. You hear this in the guy's voices and you know they're doing it. You know, you hear this full feeling that they have. Sometimes they get a little bit of horse sensation with it too. And it comes and goes. And you described it I thought very well yesterday, you know, in the morning so to be. You wake up and be better in the morning. You know. I don't know. This is kind of a subjective feeling. It's kind of felt that maybe the whole whole head sensation was related to her. It doesn't mean the whole cardiovascular system. It did. If you could relax a little bit in the evening and I'll help it. This is my theory. You kind of wished it that way. It's just a general feeling. Nothing to substantiate it. And I think as far as the nose drops have been suited, it helped with the mucus. But it didn't help the overall fullness sensation. Did they work all right? I know we got a special with Stevie here, but did they work all right a minute? Just let go. I'm sure that. Well, I say it's clear. It made it clear out that the immune is temporarily a few hours. Yeah. And still what about now? Did you just give yourself too big a slug? Is that what happened to it? I think I probably did, Chuck. I'm sure that's what happened. You know, I said, well, I hadn't used any up to Lynn, but on entry, you know, and I said, well, I think I'll just use some of these beauties. And I think I hit maybe two big adults in the right nostril here because who am I? I started watering and I could fill up my sinuses and everything else. And then, but it lasted maybe an hour. And by the time, I guess I probably did that a couple of three hours prior to entry. And an hour later, you know, I think most of the symptoms have gone away that are you getting closer to entry and you stop worrying about it. But I did. I think I overdid it. And I just, you know, I hardly ever take any nose drops or anything. And maybe I just got too much in there. It's probably pretty powerful stuff. It is powerful. So if I, in one G or here, if I take more than a couple of drops of effort, if I use drops instead of spray, I get the same practice. Yeah, that's fine. It's a burning and a real drying sensation. And it wasn't a lack of briefing or not trying it before flight or anything like that. I think I was just a little overzealous in the application. Well, you know, two drops are good. Give us four. Yeah. What the hell? Did you feel that you got any, did you get a tack of cardio with that? Did you get a real increase in heart rate with that? Oh, I don't have the focus on it. You didn't feel it anymore. Yeah. Y'all had, y'all had, y'all had the. It comes a little more adrenaline. He got mad at us for suggesting that. We were used to that. Yeah. Y'all stayed off at the suggestion. Yes, it did. Did you, you all had some, some evidence in your ears on, after, on the first exam when Bill saw you having some, some bubbles in there. And did you have any sensation during reentry that you were having trouble clearing your ears any of you? No. No. It was right. It was surprising to me. I was looking for it. It was surprising to me. I had no problems. No, I didn't. I could feel the pressure change. Yeah. But, I know I could hear him pop. But you know, I could do, I did that too on my, uh, suit integrity check. I, I could feel the pressure. Yeah. And you know, and you just sort of pop it. Had like me come in before I forget about this voice sounding full. You know, I noticed that, that you'll do that a lot if you, I think maybe it's because the atmosphere is dry. But if you're doing a lot of talking and then you come on and I would notice myself sounding, sounding full. And I said, gee, I'm, I'm sounding like that. And, and my head wasn't, uh, constantly full at all. But I could tell in my voice that I was sounding. You're in your voice. If you've been doing a lot of talking. Right. Well, that's true. If you do, you know, like, if you end up just talking on that, like, if you end up here, I can say, just a day where you talk a lot. That kind of thing, if you just talk a lot during the day, you can have it. We don't have too much else to do in here, Charles. Yeah. Now back to that. Hey, Chuck, comment on those. We were looking for somebody to kind of go out. Who is it? Yeah. Yeah. The comment on the African bottle, they, uh, the pressure gets to them and they separate into the gillion bubbles. That emotion is very bubbly and filled with air. As soon as you take the cap off, it comes out and starts leaking. So the halogen. Yeah. Okay. And it's kind of difficult to control that stuff. Yeah. That was the first time you opened the bottle. Always. Every time you opened it up. Okay. So what technique did you use for buying those droughts? How did you put it in? Very gentle squeeze, trying to get just one drop of their time out. Just put the dropper up. Put it in there and hose it. Just like we told it to. Good boy. Uh, what, what did you take those, uh, PRDs down in your, in your suits? Take them. I don't believe it. Charles, we had zipper pockets. You're kidding. It's unbelievable. They weren't there. We pulled out those coveralls and they were zippers on it. First time we'd seen zippers, no old tricks. I'll be. So they're not on the training suits. They're just on this place. They're so close. We'll have out there. Okay. Where are you going? We had, we had, we had, we had requested it way, way back. And forgotten about that we made the official request and it was already in the mail. And nobody who put it. And none of the training devices were that way. But lo and behold, out of the package they came with. Oh, that's great. That was great. They were great too. Okay. Well, I don't understand where that is. Well, when you remove your PGA's out, is there a point of the checklist where we should include the removal of the PRD back into your flight coveralls, or is that not there? It's already says take all the items out of here. Oh, it does? Oh, it does. That happens to be one that's by itself. I see. And if you forget that extra pockets there, you'll get it. Well, now, it's listed in there when we take the suits off the first day. I guess, you know, and then when you bring the suits back over from the land, why, you know, a pretty rushed timeline, that it wouldn't, I don't know whether it'd be any good to put that in your timeline book or not, because at that time, your main purpose is just get the suits and get them stuck. Yeah, you said you jerk them down and kind of zipped up in those bangs pretty fast. Right into the back. OK. Probably wouldn't hurt, I guess, when we list the items to take out of the suits. When we come back to the land, we've just had PRDs in there. There's another item. Well, there's sunglasses and pencils and all the rest of them. That's what I mean. And then I got sunglasses, right? When did you, when you said you used sunglasses, you didn't only want to get used to sunglasses, is that right? I used prescription. Oh, OK. When did you use the correct one? Couple times when I had a very small frame of the white one. And just in the command module deal. Yeah, what the hell did I follow up to? I didn't use it. No, I didn't know. I'd use it for time and time, particularly in the LMS. The only time I want to get at that is the low light levels. Did you have any feeling about that on the lunar surface, that low, that the light levels were far from free because of that? Because that is a very typical thing. That's an interesting point. The light levels would generally higher in the lunar module. The thing that you don't simulate on the LMS is the difference between day and night on the southern moon. How about it? This is dark all the time for all practical cases. How about out on the surface when you were actually out on the surface and had your visor down? Did those light levels bother you at all? I mean, did you feel that you were having any difficulties in that? The generic problems I had was reading small print. They were close, just as in the light levels as well. And I had the problem in the LMS. Couple times when the CMS in the LMS, I think I don't know how many times I broke about. I don't think that's six or eight times for the time. I tried to read down Dan's car because it's the best only time I've ever seen you do something. All the surface junkets either start white, I mean, dazzling white, or it's absolutely black. Or it's black. I don't think I said it has a great deal to do with it at that point. Yeah, that's right. I think you've covered most of that stuff about the vision on the surface, and so it's pretty well in there. I think you've done that very well in the things. So I don't think we need to, if we have something that comes back up for that, well, we'll get the word to you. But as far as I can tell from getting through all that so far, I think we've got most of that coverage. You know, I might point out to you, if you want to pursue the visibility further for any sort of medical things. If you look at the photographs, in my opinion, they're exactly what we saw. Is that right? If you look cross-sun, the visibility is great. If you look up-sun, everything's layered out by the sun. If you look down-sun, all of the general, the central rolling and the subdued craters, they just disappear on you. But cross-sun, visibility is great. The photographs are the same way. You know, just a real brief on that same subject. It's kind of hard to tell when you're looking at just negatives of these 70 millimeters. But I was looking at some of the zero phase pictures last night and how the targets would disappear at zero phase. It does it on the films. Also, as it turned out, I'll have to get, you know, see what the prints look like. But my first impression is that I didn't see much more than what the camera did at zero phase, which is going to surprise me because I would have thought different. But I don't take that as any sort of data until I've had a chance to really see a blown-up print. You know, I'm just looking at some negatives in here. But that's my first impression. We've always said that the eyeball can see more than the film can, but with our particular film, I think they're a pretty good correspondent. But are you going to be about the same? That's great. Yeah, it's in your head, and we have a bad eyeball. No, but it's a good film. Yeah, that's a pretty great thing. Hey, on the sunglasses, I guess you got it. As far as I know, nobody even broke their sunglasses out. And you didn't see any of them? No, I didn't. Well, I think the only time we needed them was when there was sun shafting in. But in PDC, just wait a couple minutes, it could be gone. It goes away. And there was a time at 196 hours where we lost your respiratory, your CPN. Did you notice whether it was the signal conditioner disconnected then, or was there a sensor loose or anything you know it? No, there was nothing different. It just wet apparently. You couldn't see anything obvious as to why. No, I went down, went over the whole system, checked the sensors, checked the belt, checked the connection, and we were getting too close to entry to really do a great deal of troubleshooting. There was no point to do it then. OK, fine, but we're going to check those in. We never had a signal conditioner as such fail. And that's one of the things that's sort of interesting if it wasn't a sensor problem. We want to be sure and check those signal conditioners out. OK, I think we've got most of this mobility thing done in there. I was talking about that bar I'm in, Bill. Let me just say, I think my urine bank problem, the UCTA problem, is kind of related to that bill in that you know the UCTAs held by that plastic strap. I think the problem in getting that hose length correct has to do with the fact that the UCT doesn't always end up in the same place. You try to get it below the belt so that it doesn't get on top of it and increase the dimension in what you already know. And I think in doing that, I probably would wear a little more, you know, wore the gun down and wore maybe, in retrospect. If there's some way that I think it would be fixed. Yeah, it would be fixed. And then it wouldn't move up and down. And therefore, you could adjust the hose length, who better. I wore mine differently. I wore mine over the belt. That might be the deal. Well, I think it's a question of fixing the vertical height and the other thing. So you can't get the right kind of hose. Because mine was up and down. I think when you reached in, you probably thought it was sagging down as a result of being full of fluid in one hand, but also because I used to wear it below to be the belt and the other hand. But his hose had a definite kink in it. It came out of the fitting. It made a sharp kink. And it was kind of just like you see it on the pin. Very good. Did you feel any real dryness of skin as such, or dryness of your lips, or your nose at all? Did you ever have any sensation that way? Not exceptionally, for me. I shouldn't have any obvious sensations, right? I don't know the stupid. I noticed his lips were cracking about the fourth or fifth day. We got lagging from TDI's. But I don't know what you've got it about. No, I didn't feel dry. In fact, I know they're cracking in here, too. But no, I didn't feel any dryness, particularly at all. OK. I think we got these all together, I think. Did they talk to you about the Phil Chandler and I wanted to tap on the light flash thing on the end of this thing, so I did it out here. I want you to come on in and let him get that out of the way. Hey, Chuck, just real fast. I know you've got to take the data, and you're looking ahead to the longer flights. I'm not trying to downplay it. But this weight loss, I think, in my case, I don't want to be misconstrued. I was just sitting here thinking, I weighed less after I feel tripped to Iceland than I did after this flight, too. Weight loss of me, five pounds, comes and goes, with no problem at all. Well, that's why the body water things are going to be pretty important. You know, is that really a total body water loss, I think? That'll be a real important plug to hang on there. That's why we'll go over that way, so it is clear. We won't have total body water, or an exercise or a food space, so I'll have to quarantine now. We'll be done in favor of it. Those are data matters. We're just doing the galloping in there. Why can't we get it out? I don't want to do that, what are you doing? We're just not equipped. Let's get it out. I'll talk with you later. OK. There's a scientist. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah, there he is. Let's go out. If y'all want any coffee, I've got a big pot right here. Yeah, I'm coming over to get some room on that. I want to get it. I think suggested that we should tack on a few questions about light flashes, and the end is briefing. I think we're about to do. What we'd like to do is to clarify some of the subjective impressions that you've got of what you saw on the way of light flashes, and also to clarify the conditions under which you saw them. I could stand back from the mic just a little bit. That's a boom mic. I told you to sit right here, and he'll pick it up. He'll be really glad of us out there. Let's go. All right. You should arrive at the mic. Is there a way that the room could be down? That the room could be down? Yeah. In a while. You know what? Okay. First question we got is the streaks that you saw with a very sharp phenomenon, or with a rather diffuse like Fuzzy. Once I saw it, we're very sharp. There was no mistaking what it was. The streak still all against the penius lead was very cool. Yeah. I think that's correct. Both the single streak and the double shot, the period to be very clear to me. They were quite clear, and I think I made the comment over the look that most of my streaks appeared to be on the periphery, and for the first several days I got the impression that this direction was predominant. Later on it appeared that I don't think I could get that good pattern, but that was my first impression for the first couple of days. The next question is, was there any apparent direction of propagation? Could you tell it was coming from one side to the other, or was it just a flash? Several times you could say from the left of the right, something like that. I tried to correlate it, but in my case I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it. Yeah, I would think that the time period, which we tried to report them streak by streak, flash by flash, was represented. And it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period, and therefore generally random throughout the time that we were noticing. No, I meant, could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other in general? It was moving in a specific way. Oh, in a specific flash? Yes, yes. You could see it as a travel from one side to the other. You couldn't really try to report it that way. Yes, you never want to mess. That's the way it works. Because it happens. It has to be very fast, you know. Isn't that question kind of redundant then? I didn't believe you. Was there some character to these flashes that had some aspect of direction? Were they all the same rod shaped or were they? Did they have a tail on them? Well, so what I reported as a streak was simply that. Now maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction leaving a tail. But I can't say that for sure. All I reported was a streak, and I had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other. And I reported that direction. I can't clarify if I could warn that. Do you want to? Maybe while you're asking a question we'd just tell us the lights. I think they can see this in the dark room. But just try it. The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it. I think you need the light out there. Can you see anything? Yeah, that's what it looked like except it was traveling. In other words, it started out and it definitely progressed in the direction of motion for individuals. Was it that right? Yeah, except you're not traveling. It was traveling. I know. You saw it at the point that it was a streak. I know that it seemed too simultaneously either. Neither did I. You have two streaks on that. I never saw that. At one time you said you saw a semicolon thing. You saw what? A semicolon. A semicolon.