DOE-UAP-D004, Los Alamos Conference on Aerial Phenomena, 1949

━ PAGE 1 ━

7 TAMSMITTA UNITED STATES ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION LOS ALAMOS, NEW MEXICO DECLASSIFIED Authority: NND 58378 ADDRESS REPLY TO: MANAGER, SANTA FE DIRECTED OPERATIONS U. S. ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION P. 0. BOX 1539 LOS ALAMOS, NEW MEXICO AND REFER TO: SFD-3-1 March 22, 1949 R & D ROUTING INFO ACTIONE INITIALS DIRE TOR DEPUTY EXECUTIVE "E" 352 It• Cndr. Richord Mendelkorn AFSUE Hoadquarters Sandia Base Albuguerque, New Lexico Doer Cmdr. Handelkorn: Furnished herewith is a transcript of the minutes of the conferenco hold at Los Alamos February 16, 1949, pertoining to aerial phenomona. "M" "N" ADMIN SUSPENSE FILE M-9 Very truly yours, Sidney Newburger, Jr. Manling-f Chiof, Security Oporations Branch Enol: As indicated Department of Eneegy Declassification Review REVIEW - DATE: 202a.CO3. DETERMINATION (CIRCLE NUNRERIS, 1. CLASSIFICATION RETAINED AUTHORITY! 4. CLASSIFICATICH CHANGED TO 1. CONTAINIS NO DOE CLASSIPVED INFO MATE wITK meE 10n00 DDECLASSIFIEO CLASSIFISD INFO BRACKETE OTHER (SPECIFY: MAYA, PALE OUI DECLASSIFIED Authority NND 58378 • 3KT HIRI, Dal 4/3/2026 ducl#5 "When seperated from enclosures, handle this document as.. 11 ULUNE F TANSMITAI 4V SHORT TITLE: Aull -5-522

━ PAGE 2 ━

"CAUTION Tile deemsent containe tel Natio ng the DODUMENT CONSISTS OF 2Y MAGENT 18 OF 25 COPIES, SERIES A Countents 1r on is probibited CONPERENCE 0n AMRIAL PHONONSHA Held at 1300, 16 February 1949, in conference roon Po162, Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, Los Alamos, New lexico. Present: Ith Army: Major W1mn Major Godsce Capisin Keel AESWP: Commender Meindelkorn University of New Mexico: Dr. LaPas FBI: Mr. Maxwell USABC, ST00: Mr. Morgan Nr. Newburger University of California: Dr. Bradbury Da. Holloway Мх. Ноуб 3r. Henley De. Reines Dr. Teller Mr. Fewburger opened the conference end stated that the subject of Aerial Phenomens was alasnified Secret within the meaning of AR 380-5 and comparable approyziate regulations of the Nevy and Air Forces, and that all personnel at this meeting vere properly cleared. Mr. Hewburger then introduced Captain Neel, who briefly outlined the yurpose of thia neeting. Ceptein Neef: It all started back in Decenber, 1948, when we 2irat received some reports from some airline pilots that these green fireballs were sighted. At this stage we had no ides what to do with it oz what it was. We approached Dr. LaPaz who has been assisting us, gratis, since that date. Almost over two months now that he has been assisting us, so in order to have you get the facte as they eze to a scientist, I'll let Dr. LaPez explain these things as we have found, them. Thea you can five us your opinion fron there; that is what we are interested in. Dr. IaPaz: I would like to review what is observed in the ease of a conven- tional meteorite fall. Hot that I have any hopes of saying anything you don't already inow, but because I regard the observational evidence observed by the conventional neteorite falls as providing the necessary background for what 18 now observed. Meteorite fells (for nest minute or two, Dr. LaPes's comments on record dromed out by noise fron ditch disger immediately outside conference 200m) ....... Beceuse of sound phenomens yrimmily, the fall of a large meteorite will cause great fright among lman beings necessarily but primarily anong animals, of all kinds. The fact follows, by a neteorite falling into the DECLASSIFIED Rutherity NND 58378 BIEKT. NARA Dato L/3/2006 SHORI THE 3ll - 5572

━ PAGE 3 ━

Conference on AERIAL, PENTOMPNA Page 2 earth, is as you would expect, one at randon - in azimuth and elevation. If the radiant white is known, you can predict the mininun angle with respect to the plane of the horizon at which the neteorite path has been observed. There is no choice, as far as the ..... for direction when meteorites fall in at I'd like to contrant non, at this time, this fact with what has been observed by some individuals here at the conference and by mny of the ABSS inspectors, UAL pilota, special agents, goodnesa knows how many other categories of people. I choose to describe the only one of the incidents that I was personelly a witnes to. It is the only one of the incidents that I am in a position to vouch for on the bosis of experience, dating from 1915, as a member of the American Meteor Society, was most certainly not a conventional meteorite fall. It was the so-called Starvation Peak incident on the night of December 12, Tine of observation around 9:02 P.M., plus or minus 30 seconds. fireball appeared in full intensity instantly - there was no increase in light. Its color, estimated to be sonewhere around wave length 5200 engstroms, wes a hue green, or yellow green, such se I had never observed in meteor fells before. The path vas as nearly horizontal as one could deternine by visual observation. We have a photograph which might be some lisers of departure from horizontal. The trajectory was traverse at, I an inclined to believe, constant angular velocity. Just before the end of the path there was the very slightest drooping of the path, that is the green fireball brole into fragments, still bright green. Dr. Teller: And all this time the intensity vas approximately constent? Dr. LaPez: A11 the time, as far as I could determine. The eye, of course, is admittedly a vezy crude phocographer. De. Teller: How long did the phenomenon last? De. LaPaz: Almost exactly two seconds. We have in the reports here, I brought the complete file with me and would be glad to circulate them, duration neasures determined under as favorable circumstances as the duration of the Starvation Peak incident. Possibly I should go back and review the situation a little bit. Becouse some report, issued by the AESS, would certainly suggest that I as primarily responsible foz sterting this whole matter I am glad that Captain Neef corzected that lupression. Actually, I was on an investigation in regerd to the green fireball observed on the night of December 5th at the time the December 12th incident occuzzed. As a result I was keyed up; I was watching; I had a stop watch with me and a transit. We got into position and made messures, transit measures, on azimuths and elevation readings; that is, we made a duration check, certainly within not more than two or three minutes after the incident occurred. To that extent, I believe, it ie possibly the best observed of any incident up to the time of the Januzy 30th fall. Dr. Manley: How did you have time to use the transit? De. LaPos: The transit was in the back of the car. The moment the car was parked at the side of the road, we yanked the transit out and set it up and

━ PAGE 4 ━

SEC Conference on ABRIAL PHENOMINA Page 3 began measurements. We were in motion at the time but we were able to get a very good check of what we observed at the time on the road near Stazvation We had a clear view of the sly to the Northwest and the West, and the object was so low over the horizon it was possible to compare it not only to the sters with which I am familiar, but with respect to mountain peaks that were also visible. To contime, that duration ves about two seconde. This is one of the puzzling things to the meteorists. I belleve I do not exeggerate when I say that 90% of the duration determinations that have been made in the case of the green (ireballs have given durations right in that vicinity. Wherees you take, say, 100 ordinary meteor observations you will find the widest diversions in durations. You could take the same lesson as observed by 100 people - possibly that's a hetter exemple - and there would be wide veriations in the estimates of duration. De. Manley: Did you correlate the aximuchs with .....? Dr. LaPez: No. There is an azimth factor here which I am going to talk to you about, that relates to the choice of direction. Both our observations are single station observations, so that it becches impossible from the observe- tion messure to deternine the real path of the fireball in the atmosphere. There have been only three cases where that path was determinable. One, as I recell It, was that of Docember 12, another December 20, and finally, of course, the very large fell on Janury 30, 1949- Iº13 give you some particulars on the paths. I do went to observe, however, that even our station observations present a puzzling characteristic to the meteorists. If you plot what are called, by meteorists, the amissible protozons for & green fireball that has been observed, you will. find that they give, on the average, an approach almost to the North, come dow from the North, they are not restricted to ? • Now what about the real paths? I save sone indications as to the altitude at which meteorites normally disrupt full ..... and come dow. That reletes to the lowest ..... of path. The green firebslls are unusual in this respect: probably that they are horizontal or nearly so, or that their horizontal path is traversed very low down in the atmosphere. In the case of the real paths for which we have been able to make determinations so far, those are graphical determinations, as we have not taken the trouble to use Chablis (?) methods or •..... because the observations are regarded as necessarily too rough for machematical niceties. Those paths are traversed at elevations between 8 and 10 miles. I defy you to find anywhere among meteorists, examples of conven- tional meteorites that move over long horizontal paths reserving nearly constant angular velocities and therefore, on the average, coustant linear velocities, at elevations of the order of 8 to 10 miles. There is a good deal of evidence that may be of value in the complete reports that are available hore, but since this is an introduction, I would like to summarize at thie stage: the fireball which I persomily witnessed on the night of December 12, 1948, was not, in my opinion, a conventional meteor fall. Since the mjority of the green flreballe have been reported to me, both before and after this December 12th occurrence, possess almost all the properties which I personally observed on the night of

━ PAGE 5 ━

Conference on AERIAL PHNITOMSNA Page 4 surface of the earth and is somehow endowed with the property against the very great atmospherle resistance that is experienced on a level, it reserves nearly constant velocity over pathe say of the order of 25 to over 100 miles, as in the case of the green fireball on January 30th. It should also have the property that it is a very remerkable hue of green, not heretofore observed, to my Inowledge, in the case of any conventional meteor falls. And finally, and this possibly is the nost implausible feature of all, that although it produces light vleible at distances of the order of 400 miles, it doesn't meke a sound. In the case of the Jenuazy 30th fall, due to the fact that there had been a large number of military personnel alerted, we vere able to obtain observations within a minute after the fall occurred end pursued the investiga- tion over a distance o2 1,600 miles - in Texes mud primerily? - in some ten days' time interviewing literally hundreds of people, we saw not one substan- De. Teller: May I ask how mny people have seen this one big meteorite? Dr. LaPaz: That is difficult to say. (record blank for short peri,od)........ Finally, in the interrogation of such persons, ve inveriably interview them as individuale. We tried a family of 8 the first night, as Major Godsoe will sympathetic influence and ve broke it off after I think the third or fourth possibly stations of the order of 100, there were probably 100 ditterent stations reporting. Dz. Peller: What area did that cover? De. LaPaa: All o? New Mexico, all the Western half of Tezas. I have a may here with some indications of possibly the extent of that. Hoyt and Bradbury: Wasn't that Sunday the 24th? it was delinitely Sunday the 30th. The newspapers have very helpfully concealed most of the relevant lecte relating to this lizeball. First, they described it as a Pireball, second, they .... (record blank for few seconds). interterred, with OSI and vasn't able to do that this time. This in the field map and will give in various colors, dots and penoil dashs, etc. all of the observations obtained on the Texas search. Dr. Teller: All relate to one fall? De. LaPaz: Yes. At the time this was drawn, before I was able to make out transit measures in the vicinity of Albuguerque, this was the best ayparent path of the fireballs. These other ink lines are independent, made by other groups of observers vorking on the sane problem. (record blank again for short time). This transit, unfortuately, had a needle with & bent pieton end it was not

━ PAGE 6 ━

SECRET Conference on AERIAT, PHENOMENA Page 5 discovered until nuch later that we were getting faulty zecords. Independently, I have re-deterined, uning the best equipment available at the University, the lines of sight at all points where the faulty transit had been used. I have engineers. Dr. Teller: You meen these people right afterwards or shortly afterwards took an instrument and tried to measure it? De. LaPag: That'a right. Dr. Teller: This is the point where it disappeszed? Dr. LaPaz: And normally, all you will get is the point wheze it disappears, because the average men is aware of the fact that when he is not warned, he makes a very inaccurate observation. Having been warned by the appearance of the firebell, hic attention is fixed and he watches where it bursts, where it explodes, where it disappears. So I say this is a much better determination. This begirning point, although you notice the .... of line here, is reasonably satisfactory. Dr. Teller: Are these points here observers of the test, locations of those observations? Dr. LaPaz: Usually a dotted circle like that indicates a reported sound obser» vation. We use this symbol: a circle is a report, whether or not the observation includes azimuth of elevation, light appearances, is indicated Ly the presence of a cross. If it is blacked out, both light and sound were Now every one of those things has been disproved. In the area where the end point was located, oil well drilling was underway, dynamite blasting in connection with secting up of rigs, some nitro being used ayparently to shatter ..... In every case we were able to exclude the possibility that the noises reported actually were tied in with the meteorite fall. At least let me say, in my opinion, those noises vere excluded. In certain cases, Independently, that was confired by & visit of It. Ryan of the Roswell group of the OSI. for instance, the best case of all, near Amberst ?, or noise - the observer, it's true, was only a ten-year old boy, but he wrote a very intelligent letter, and it is well, mown that children, like animals, are more sensitive to sound than people mo have listened for too many years, say, to the radio. It appeared conceivable that he had actually made a sound observa- t10x, but It. Ryan weat to Amheret ?, found that even three members of the family were not sble to confirm his obsezvation of noise and no one in the town, some 300 or 100 persons I think in all vere estimated to have been visited, no one at all had heard & sound, so I think that Mike probably heard the same dynamite blast as had been reported by Miss Winson Diapasture • I didn't tale that name out of the funny papers, 1t actually exista. (continual examination of the napa with minor interrogations concerning merkings.)

━ PAGE 7 ━

Conference on AERIAL PEEIOMENA Page 6 Dr. LePag: With one exception, In the case of Roswell, there are two types of sound associated with meteorite falls and, I assume, associated with the motion of any very high velocity projectile or missile through the air. There are what physicists would call ressonable sounds, and while he would not acknowledge it, simultaneously with the eppearance of a meteorite, you the physicist vill refuse to believe the observation. Nevertheless, there is a tremendous volune of evidence indicating that these anomalous scunds occurred. Anyone who does field work in the search for meteorites will cone across possibly l0p of the observers who say that, although ny attention was attracted by hearing, a whining noise, a whistling noise, I looked up and there was the fireball. In other words, this anomalous sound apperently attracts attention to the occurrence. I have an article by Brandon..... one of the sons of the man who first investigated the great crater out In Arizons, and a chap by the none of fart ? with vhom I am not personally acquainted but a physicist apparently at Princeton, in which they attenpt to justify the occurrence of anonslous sound. They express it roughly in this fesion. Electronagnetic radiation is set up by (Dr. Teller excused to enswer the phone.) Dr. LaPaR: You wouldn't believe it anyway! However, ..... electromagnetic radiation is rectified somehow by the ..... changed into sound that can be heard and, therefore, you can her the meteorite at the sene time you see it 2al1. In the case of the Roswell obsezvation apparently that occurred. We have a group of five men - there were near a steel smokestack - and every last one of then swears that they heerd at the sene time they were watching the green fireball go by, a noise like, say, a gasoline blotorch. certainly not an ordinary explosives sound. One more thing in connection with the noises. In every other neteorite fall, any one meteorite fall that I have investigated, - that covers many years - I have never yet found an occasion of a detonating fireball, without meteorites coming dow at all, in which there was not some evidence of alarm of animals. Chickens will fly around to czy to get under cover. Dogs will howl and try to get into the house. Horses will run avay. In the case of the Tezas fall, in spite of the tremendous area in which the light was observed, se found not a single case in which the animals were disturbed. We new of the case of a farmer who had, in sunny Texas, a pond with a five-inch layer of ice, who reported that a mateorite had fallen through the ice on that pond, had bzoken a hole. Captain Nee? here put on a pair of rubber boots and very thoroughly searched the pond. without finding a meteorite. Even in that osse there was no evidence of alarm by the animals. I believe with that sunmary, I'd better cease operations and have you ask questions. Question: How many observed falls? Dr. IsPaz: I'd like to clasaily those into three groups. I would say that there are ten instances that definitely merit the most serious consideration. They are strictly analogous to the green fireballs of the night of December 12. On top of that, there must be satething of the order of twenty nore which are

━ PAGE 8 ━

Conterence on ABRIAL PESINONEIVA Page 7 so well reported, fron Ios Alamos for example, that although the green fire- the nature of the fireball .... many observations of obnervers who paid practically no attention to the sky at any other time in their lives and now when they see a really bright light, they report it. You will find a great many instances of bluish-wite fire- In ny opinion, those falling vertically and lesving trails, are simply ordinary shooting stars. O2 high intensity, that i8, what we call fireballs, a blue light, are not in any sense to be associated with the green Dr. Menley: ? Dr. LaPaz: In the case of the two green fireball paths, determined from Los Alamos observations, in one case the Stervation Peak incident, we have an East-West motion, and then also a notion emctly parallel to vords, these two real paths show, I think they are the only two of the Pret category that show any real departure fron the ..... It is possible to explain cast. It is quite evident that we have no case of assurance that both groups of observers, the observers at Starvation Peal and the observere at Los Alemos, saw the same point of ..... so that if we were to merely ask what are the limite within which such real paths might fell, it tums out that it might be es sbort as 12 miles instead of being 25 miles long, and in that case it would be directed almost directly to the forth; it would come down very neszly within 2 degrees, 5 degrees say, of the Worth. In the case of the Texas observations, whereas I have indicated and the maps show, we have many observations by trained observers, notion is clearly almont directly North to South. I have been informed that there are reasons for regarding the ..... out here (ditch digger) ... and you notice that this passes reasombly close to lubbock. The seme is true of the two earlier fireballs, those of December 12 and December 20. They both passed - one passed centrally over Los Alamos and the other about six miles North of the center, but this would not be true ..... (ditch digger). One point that possibly should have been mentioned earlier is this: I was the more Interested when Captain Neef cane to my office and brought the December 5th incident to my mind because very much eazlier I had been contacted firet by ... White, Director of Texas Observers, in regard to their remarkable green flare seen on January 1, 1948. Second, from a Dr. Pruitt, Director Northwestern Section, City Section, of the Meteor Society, I had been informed that earller occurrences of bright green fireballs, not too far fron the Hanford area. When Captain Neef came in with reports of green fireballs near Ina Vegas and particularly when he disclosed that there was a Los Alemos neaz Les Vegas - the real Los Alamos - it had much interest. D2. HoLlOway: Are there any reporte of theme from other installations, such as Troy, New York, or pLaces Jake chati Dr. LaPaz: I raised that question and I know of no other cases. I mean to say the areas from which these reports come, as in one, for such evidence as ....., they do not relate to the green fireballs; they relate to the daylight occurrence of horisontal moving, bright waite objects - some in Herphis, Tennessee in Nay, 1948 - that is not too far from Oak Ridge, They relate to

━ PAGE 9 ━

Conference on ABRIAL, PHENOMENA Page 8 the Hanford area as far as the Pruitt observations go, and to the observations that I've mentioned here in the las Veges-Los Alamos area •...... A very curious thing has come to light during these investigations. I published not long ago an article in Science Illustrated on the recovery of the ..... Town meteorite. The time that fell, February 18, 1948, the runor got around sonehow in Northern Kensas and Southern Kansas that it was a Russian bomb, and it was aimed at the geographical center of the Unived States which is not very far iron ..... Apparently, a grest many people gave credence to that runor and were delighted when ve floally recovered meteorites up there and proved it wasn't anything but en ordinary neteorite fall. Incidentally, 1t did not have the characteristics of the green fireball we're talking about here. There wus an air transport pilot wo made a most curious observation while fLying neur Cherbourg on January 16, 1946. His observation was the observation of a bouncing neceor. After what I've been telling you about the green fire- balls, you probably think it not unreasonable that & meteorite should bounce but to the meteorlytical, mind thet seems very hard to swallow. The interest Is that one of your own persons here at los Alemos, one and confirmed at least in part by four other persons, sew one of the green fireballe come down and then glide off horizontally. The bouncing neteorite is manually explained by having it form, say sinusoidal motion lying in about the plane at which the observer was looking so that he first saw the high point of the curve or the The next time it was at the peak, it was so far away that the altitude was very low, which will give you the appeazence of a bouncing meteorite. I offer that as a possible explanacion. Of course, he may bave landed in Paris before he made the Cherbourg flight and then we should diszegard the testimony entirely! Mr. Newburger: Dr. LaPez, you mentioned, I believe, at one of our other meetings that they had compared the color of this with certain metals? Dr. IoPaz: That's right. Initially ve could only ask them what they thought it looked. like. And we got such interesting responses that we eventually carried around a spectrum chart and allowed everybody to make his own choice. Of course, the use of the spectzum chart was unnecessary if they heve a color Ilke one lady who had around her neck a green scarf which she assured me bad exactly the same hue, but normally not having such things to look at, they were pleased to have the chart to look at. They will choose, in 90% of the cases, category l and category 2 a wave length which corresponds to something between 4900 and posalbly 5300. Most of them will fall very close to 5218 which is about the color you get when you have copper salts in the Bunsen buener. I checked with Dr. Regener on that and asked him if an alloy had been used, like, say, copper beryllium, if there would be any change in that hue, and he bes assured me there would not. He said it would still give 1350 of the 1500 only the nerest trace of copper occurrence. There are a Sew meteorites like ..... in South Dalota, where little veins of copper have been Pouni, making up possibly .4 of 1%. Dr. Bradbary: Is this true of all meteoriten?

━ PAGE 10 ━

SECRET Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 9 De. IaPaz: It's true in any category. Even in the irons, the presence of copper is very hard to detect, very little. ..... (ditch digger). I don't know whether you gentlemen could suggest an easy way to obtain green fireball spectra or not. Dr. Teller: What is the geographical solution of this? Dr. LaPaz: Another map would probably answer that best of all. (Looked at more maps with some talk that was not audible.) Light of December 30, 1948. (Recora dead dor mimete ore ed seen on ta '. Record dead dor minute or two. Mr. Hoyt: I would have seid ayproximately as far above the mountain as the floor of the valley wes below the top of the mountein. I felt that would give me somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 feet or thereabouts. about 5 minutes to 6, on uy way up here. I have & feeling that it had a doward path. I mean it was going South. Dr. LaPos: But it was not strictly horizontal? Nr. Hoyt: No. Dr. TaPas: We have some discrepancion in that regard. 95% of the observa tions indicate a very nearly horizontal path. One from Fort Horth, Texas, which was not made by ..... but messured by them, Indicates an elevation of 6 degrees at the beginning and 22 to 3 degrees at the end. Mr. Hoyt: That's what I would have said, but remember that the ridge would give you the sensacion that it was taking a dowward path. Duration - at the time I would say it was approximately 3 seconds. Condz. Mandelkorn: How does the calculated velocity of these objects compare with the known velocity of meteorites? Dr. LaPaz: Apparently very much lover; that is, more than the ordinarily observed meteorite falls. Fizst, to observe in the cast of an actuel meteorite fall you have a relation of the velocity from the suricle of ..... atnosphere down to the impact velocity wich my be very ..... but it len't fair to compace the velocity of the green fireballs to the impact velocity of ....•• (aitch digger and everyone talking at once)....... Not with the trajectory velocity of the neteorite which is the seme as the velocity of the fraguents thet fall from the meteorite. After a meteorite ..... the fragneats fall about like a bomb. Their resistance just about balances out the ..... and as a result, they come down with about the velocity of a felling bomb, & little less because they do not have the same ballistic coefficient. Dr. Bradbury: This is not an excluded ? direction like the .....?

━ PAGE 11 ━

Conference on AERIAL PHANOMENA Fage 10 Dr. LaPas: Due to the fact that they have a curve, and practically all times during which darkness is with us, way they tend to come in from that direc- tion.... Dr. Bradbury: Would it be a shower? Dr. LaFar: That was ny firet explanation, as & matter o? fact. Geminate showers with a maximm of December 10 to December 12. The fizat evidence that I had van Sgt. Kinsley's report on December 2 and since often the forerunners of the alowers will ..... I thought we were talking about Geminute showers except that I never observed a green Geminate. Matter of fact, a check of obvervations made at that time found that there vere 414 observations since 1915 and there wam't a single one, Ceminate or non-Geminate, for which any hue of green was mentioned. Later, for instance on the night of December 12, you could watch the Geminate come dot..... and notice that they ceme in at high angles to the horizontal, wereas the green firebells ..... Incidentally, we heve another interesting piece of evidence there - De. Sherman Smith frou the University - I mention an observation that he made on the sane night. The time of the observation is in dispute. According to Dr. Smith it vas probably aa late as 10:50. He had to wait for a long time, he said, for his wife to pick him up after the concert was over. Mrs. Saith, however, times it around. 10:10. Whatever the time, within an hour or say an hour and a half after the green fireball and the horizontal path were observed, we have snother extremely bright blue fireball come out of the Geminate rays. soue of the first persons to concern themsalves with this problem suggest that the green fireballs were simply abnormally bright Geninates. Apparently you can have very large Geminate falls of the color estimated by a trained ...... checked with the spectrun charts ..... in quite distant, I assure you, fron the green fireballs. Condr. Mendelkorn: How good is the coverage of the observers of the American Meteor Society as far as the top-half of the United Statea is concerned? Dr. IaPaz: It depends a good deal upon overcast conditions. I would say, however, that this year the lastern half of the countzy has offered phenonenal observing conditions. One of ny reasons for withdrawing from Ohio State was that after 13 yeara there I had given up hope of ever seeing a meteorite shover because during the season of meximum intensity of the falls we had heavy over- cast, snow end so forth. On the other hand, this year they're had reasonably open skies. I have obtained no reports from people in that part of the country. We thought we had a definitive check because Harvard College has now Installed • photographic meteor station near or possibly inside the White Sends Proving Ground. Since the 12th of December, you correct me 11 I exaggerate here, we have been trying to determine the color and other charcter- istics of the ten or 12 brightest meteors observed at that station. We still don't know what they saw. We know they vere operating and they made some photographs, but Captain Neef can probably tell you the red-tape channelization impediments that has dropped out any determinations better than I can.

━ PAGE 12 ━

SECREF Conference on ABRIAL PERNOMIITA Page 11 Captein leef: Well, it's one of those things; it's a Navy contract and they are not at liberty to divulge that they find, so we have to go through Machington, the Bureau of Ordnance, to get the information. Comdr. Mandelkorn: I believe I can get that infomation; as a matter of fact, I feel very certain that I can. Just a matter of approach. Dr. LaPaz: I feel certein 1º I had contacted Dr. Fred Whiyple, for exemple, I could have obtained it, but his other occupations keep him away from that installation. And actually I felt as a meteorist, it might be wise to have OSI appeal for inforustion rether than to ask for it directly. Captain feel: Taey did tell us they weren't using films which were going to be susceptible to these colors. De. LaPes: But, of course, they are making constant visual observations and I? you vere able to determine visual observations 100 miles from Los Alanos don't reveal the occurrence of bright green fireballs, I think it would be significant. I don't now why they should avoid the Southern-half of the Condr. Mandellora: Let us say 1f these had. been at extremely high altitudes, they would have been visible fron White Sands without any question. Captain Neef: This one of the 30th definitely was visible from White Sands because Conmender Hollowen ? and hia wife and one of his assistants and his wife saw it from there. Dz• LaPas: On the other hand, you have evidence lilse that of Professor Talbot ? mw in charge of the optical trajectory section down there, an experienced astronomer, & nember of the Anerican Meteor Society. I talked with him about thia, and he has observed nothing out of the ordinary. I don't think anybody, I mean in the line of green fireballs, in this area has been observing aB much as he does. I don't see how he could miss sighting some of these. Question: Wist explanation do you have for this? Dr. IsPan: The only explanation is the one I gave in the begiming and had my eare pronptly boxed for. I think these are defensive manoeuvers of some higher U S. Command, and they are practising in the neighborhood of the regions they are going to defend, so naturally your localization of light near tho atonie bomb installations, but boy, an I scolded for that! Even Dr. Keplen of the FAD ? telle me no, no, the TA) would know all about it, and they don't have any facts. Dr. Bradbury: Is this the physicist Kaplen? Dr. LaPez: Yes. Keplan is my old boss. He was chief of the operational analyeis section when I was ..... director there. ..... During Kaplan's visit

━ PAGE 13 ━

SEC Conference on AMRIAL PHENOMENA Page 12 to the University of New Mexico, where he was lecturing, we called a confer- ence with Major Godsoe and other interested parties. He gave a brief resume of the observationa that had been made to date. Now, Kaplan is one of the charter members of the American Mateor. Sooiety, and he said certeinly these could not be conventional meteorite falls. He, of course, mentioned as other prople do who have not gone into it more thoroughly, the possibility of abnormal types of meteorite falls, that night come in from a peculiar direc- tion or might droop at very low level, but I don't think he was able to explain the absence of sound. Dr. Teller: Did I understand you cortectly that the veloeity of the object appears to be some 50 kilometers per second? Dr. LaPaz: No. In the case of the green fireballs something between 3 miles per second and 12 miles per second. Depending, you see, if you choose one ruled map or another. For example, let me illustrate how that affects the velocity determination. This is the one I think possibly best represents the observations of the case of the fireball of December 12. That is the path I assume the Los Alamos observers saw the seme point of the curves that the Starvation Peak observers did, likevise to the point of disapporence. If we deny that possibility, the path might shorten to this dotted line. (Dr. LaPaz worked on maps with Dr. Teller, expleining paths.) Dropping fron 25 to some- thing between 11 and 12 miles. The January 30 observation gave us our first STEE long path. Dz. Teller: How long was it? Dr. LaPaz: The first observations we had here indicated ..... That was because of errors in the determination of the azimuth at the point of begin- ning, made due to the foulty transit they used. But that's correct that the pata runs over 100 miles. Dr. Teller: And how long does it take? De. LaPaz: Duration estimates range from 5 to around 14 seconds. I think that a 10 second average is about the best, that would give about 10 miles per second. Dr. Bradbury: Green is not an unknown color in meteors! Dr. LaPaz: If I were to revelte the report that I first presented on that sub- Bay never observang "rarely observed" this color Breen, I think I would now You sometimes see green, Dr. Bradbury, but it 1a a blue- green. The blue green color is rere, but it is observed. For instance, Dr. Sherman Snith's observation was essentially a blue-green, but on the blue aide. Dr. Bradbury: Want other colors do you see in meteors?

━ PAGE 14 ━

scri Conference on AERIAL, PHENONIANA Page 13 Dr. LoPez: Whites chiefly. Il you look closely and without interference from outside lights, yellows, oranges and reds. Dr. Bradbury: But it's apparently a yellowish-green we're talking about here. If you can see a bluish-green, you can also see yellows and waites. De. LaPas: There ie some defect, possibly in the vision, that requires a pretty high intensity in that yellow-green before it's noted in a meteor fell. Dr. Bradbury: Looks like green? Dr. LoPez: Yes it does, that's perfectly true. Now here's a peculiar property of those yellow-green fireballs - sone people will refer to them as red. only explanation that I con think of is they report afterwards that they see what is an exposure to a very green-bluish light rather than the light itself - I don't know if that is correct, And, incidentally, due to your observation, I don't know how to explain the imbility of meteor observers to report this renegade color, but I simply know it doesn't ocour: Like those of the American Meteor Society, you will find, I imagine, not 3 in 100 where a green is nentioned. Even in the case of the ? showers, where you have large numbere of very bright colors - let me recall sonething that all of you must have seen. • The ..... shower of October 9, 1946 - anyone here who saw that? There vere large mmbers of extremely bright fireballs at that time. Kaplan himself recalled that they were blue, maybe blus-green, but never yellow green. And I observed those under very favorable circumstances - we were Flying at about 20,000 feet in a B-29. We had no absorption effects at all. They definitely did not shot hues of green. Dr. Bradbury: You mentioned the noise problem also. The noise occurs only when the meteor itself blows up, breaks up? Dr. LaPaz: No, that isn't strictly true. You have, in addition to the hollow sound, the normal sound of the breakup of the ..... You have headwind; you're near the path. You get a real shock; for instance, we have ..... ayparently broken up by that headwave, shock wave, in the case of the Worden County Fella. And then from the turbulense and reflections all the way slong the path, you will have & rumbling which may endure not for the natter of a tenth of a second, but for minutes, and they're real rough. De. Bradbury: But these occur fairly close to the trajectory? Dr. LaPaz: No. In the case of the Norden County Falls again, they were heard clear down to ..... City. Sbakes buildings that far away. The ..... Falls vere heard up to 300 miles fron the point of impaot. Dr. Bradbury: Large number of observations ....... Dr. LaPaz: No, there again I checked very carefully because I was concerned. I am trying desperately to give e logical explanation to the absence of sound.

━ PAGE 15 ━

SECRET Conference on AERIAL PHENOMINA Page 14 I have found in the literature only three cases where no detonations, no One of those in the Belgium observation in 1855, and I think should be discounted because meteorists hardly existed at that time. Some falls occurred and were not reported at all. The other two are reasonably recent observations - one in 1921 and one in 1922. They occurred, however, in the deep South where negroes, I think, were the only observers. Even there, the wizzing of the meteorites as they fell through the ait, was reported. I lnow of no case of an actual meteorite where at least the whizzing of the falling body coming down through the air has not been reported. Dr. Bradbury: .. 2 Dr. LaPez: Meteorite fells, I belleve that was the way you phrased it? In the case of a shooting star, of course, you never hear a thing becsuse the entire mass is, very kindly, vaporized before 16 gets, say, within 50 miles of the eerth....... Not only noises, but accompanied by such noises that persons or animals are really frightened out of their wits. For example, ve have a beautiful case were 2 horses killed thanselves - in the forden County Falls - they mey have been felled by meteorites, but I'm inclined to think that the noise frightened then until they dashed into a ditch ...... Animals go crasy. Conda. Mandelkorn: Do you think it wusual no fragments are found? Dr. LsPaz: I certeinly do. And I think it unusual, not only in the case of the green fireballs, but in view of the foct that a great fall, like the .....?all of October 30, 1947, where for the first time we detected a bit of the interest on the party of the military, there too ve recovered nothing. October 30, 1947, about 4:8 in the alternoon there was, what appeared to be, a tremendous meteorite fall over the reservation area - the Four Corners We got there within a very few hours, had excellent observations, went back time and again, exhausted ground search, CAP people in airplenes, we had a radio centered, ve had radio controlled jeeps and a lot of people out walke ing around - not a trace. I can't give you a color on that becouse ..... Comir. Mandellorn: Ordinarily, when phenomens of that nature occur, you are able to recover some material? De. LaPez: Yes, some material is recovered almont always. If proper search is conducted. We have, by the way, very thorough air search conducted by G131 Pield Corps of Intelligence Unit; Dr. Lansberg of the Research end Development Board, very kindly Interested himself in the problem and the alr searchers resulted not even in the discovery of a broken branch. The region is heavily forrested. If branches had been broken, I think they would have been detected. I heren't classified that particular fall, however, with the green fireballs and for this reason: that left a crain. Another thing walch I night have mentioned - a noral neteorite fall ..... will produce a long enring train visible by dsy and night. Luminous by night and by day,

━ PAGE 16 ━

CPE Conference on AERIAL. PEEROMENA Fage 15 1lluminated by the sun. In the case of the irons, it will be very faint, but it°ll be there if you look for it. In the case of the Four Corners Fall, that train was observed and. I'm inclined to believe that it might have been a conventional meteorite fall. In the case of the green fireballs, to my mowledge, no such trein has been observed. That question is alweye asked of people - did you observe a long enduring train; their replies were always negative. Comdr, Mandelkorn: Then you would say there vere 10 incidents which are analogous to the green fireballs, with reyorts checked by a sufficient nmber of independent observers, that there is no doubt whatsoever of their occurrence? Dr. LaPaz: That's right. Conde. Mundelkorn: Then there are 20 with some deviations, two of these , probably aze related to the green fireballs ..... Da. LoPez: I believe two of those incidents I mentioned occurred before the 5th of December. A very remarkable one of the 4ch of August - note that that again is very close to the time or ..... meteor shower ...... From late in July on and my report will be producing quite a mmber of these ......., but it is physically impossible with this particular observetion from near ...... Oxegon..... De- Bradbury: Then their directions were wrong? Dr. LaPaz: As a matter of fact, ve can't tell because they were single observations. Maybe I should pass that letter around, but it is, I believe, the first detailed report on what night be characterized as a typical green fIreball. After the Oscar .... Incident of Jamary 1, 1948, was merely a remarkable green flash, which might have had some other interpretation. (Dr. LaPaz showed some letters around the table, and there was general talk not able to be picked up individually.) Major Godsoe: The basic purpose of this meeting is: we want you to find a meteor! Mr. Newburger: Have the military - anyone from the National Defense estab- lishment - given us axything? Sent out any conjectures about this thing? Major Godsoe: No, most of the military authorities think we are crackpots; that 1s, except for the Aruy Air Force, which is taking an active interest in details. Mr. Newburger: The Air Force does have the primary interest in this gadget? Major Godsoe: Yes, the Air Force is the gathering, reporting agency for thie phenomenon.

━ PAGE 17 ━

Conference on ABRIAL PHENOMENA Page 16 Cond. Mendelkorn: I'd like to remove thnt temporary statement about the Arned Forces Special lespons Project; we aren't laughing ....(record blank for minute or two). Dr. Bradbury: None of us are experts in this field, so ve essentially have to believe what ve are told. I suppose if you try to look for logical explanations, there are probably some. Dr. LaPez: I would like to ask one question here - unless you feed power into a body moving into a horizontel path, can it preserve essentially a horizontal trajectory? A plane does it; meteorites don't do it; shows curves 68 the energy falls off. This thing apparently ignores air resistance and gravity and goes blissfully on its way..•• Ix. Teller: As far as straightness of the path is concerned, 12 you have & meteorite that you have observed for 10 seconds, and in these 10 seconds it has gone adistence of 100 miles, it will have fallen in this distance 1/3 of a mile and now I should like to dare any observer to tell a cuvature of this kind - becsure you are completely unprepared for the phenomenon. Dr. LaPez: As it slows down, it curves towerd the bottom. Dr. Teller: But apparently before it has happened, slowed down too much or exploded or something, und then it has disappeared. Now the ..... point is, of course, if it has no power it will slow down, but I do not know how quickly you would have to estimate that; furthernore, the rate at which it slows down will depend very mich on the question whether it has been at a 10 mile altitude or a 20 mile altitude. Dr. LePaz: The elevation estimates are very concordant on these, and I doubt that you will be able to change that elevation of 8 to 10 miles by very much. These are the real path observations thet I have mentioned. Dr. Teller: Well, can you say.......do you think anything con be said about that? Dr. LaPaz: I doubt 1t. The eye, of course, is not a good speedometer. You can't detect a change. At least, I did not in the one observation that I made, and no such change has been reported. In the case of those who observed the green fireballs, suy that near the end of the Texas fireball path of January 30 it was noted that the fragments moved out leisurely to the point at which there was apparently less velocity, as show by them on the green fireball itself. Ney I mention, hovever, that in the case of the normal meteorite foll that curvature in the path, the transverse vertical, is one of the nost oyparent. You see that In the cese of say large, ordinary detonation fireball fell even though it moy not produce ..... there 1s a tendency to curve. Dr. Teller: What about total 11ght. ... How does the brightness compare to the brightness of the meteozites that come from a meteor?

━ PAGE 18 ━

Conference on ABIAL PRDZIONENA Pago 17 Dr. IsPaz: In the case of the Texas fall, this is very rough; I didn't see it, I con only base an estimate say on the comparisons that were made with the moon as to size and total intensity. In the case of the Texas fall it would certainly be comparable to - it was one of the brightest observed fireballs in total intensity .... In the case of the Stervation Peak incident, we con compare it with Verus which was conveniently located, and 1t certainly vas of steller mognitude minus 4, possibly a little brighter. That comparison was made almost Immediately after the observation. Mr. Hoyt: It was very bright and cleer that night. .... De. Teller: You sew it at 6 o'clock? Mr. Hoyt: At five minutes to six. Very, very clear that night. (altch digger - in between aitch digger, a few coherent rensrice:) Dr. Manley: In 1945 or 1946 I observed practically the same thing as in this letter. We thought it was a roman cardle. Definitely light green in color. I an still worried about the fact that they don't report any green color in these falls. Dz. Bredbury: Lack of noise, lack of ...., the lack of these things would be aquelly astounding for any material object. ....• Dr. LaPaz: Dr. Kaplen suggested the possibility of the same sort of phenomenon that be could produce experimentally in his laborstory .... and he telle me under certain conditions he can produce a globe or lemps of yellowish-green Light ..... He conjectured for a ninute that that might have some relation - an artificial surors. Condx. Mandelkorn: As long as you brcught that up, Naj. Johnson has a letter I obtained from Gen. Bunker which may be pertinent. Gen. Bunirer cransmitted the information you've heard to the Air Materiel Cormand, and in reply received a letter from an Air Force General who recently returned from Alasko. I'J] let Dr. IaPaz read this. Dz. LaPaz: This is closely related to wat I was talking about. It begins: "Dear Bunker: Received your interesting phenouens of 1 February and promptly turned it over to Hovard.... now saddled with the responsibility of clues. Regard as coincidental that on dates you mention Gen. Carroll was In Fairbanko, Masks, and on his return related that he had never seen before In his life such a beautiful technice) display of Northern Lights. Maybe what these people have seen in a reflection frau the .... of these pyro- technics. So far as we lnow, it is still phenomena and not meterial. Best Regards, Paul".

━ PAGE 19 ━

Conference on AERIAL PRONOMENA Page 18 Dr. InPez: May I male the observation that if you look in the chapter by ....., you'11 find that in Alaska where this observation wes reported, there are very few times at this season of the year when you can't see an aurora. Dr. Teller: I bave the feeling that it is .... either a discovery in physica] psychology or ..... Dz. LaPaz: I thought that psychological element would come in here! De. Teller: Here is a slightly irrelevent question - you brought in the Ply- ing discs. What is the connection? Dr. LaPes: I didn't bring in the flying discs. Nr. Newburger: I brought in the matter of the ?lying diacs because the Air Force, as I understand, now have classed the flying dises and these fireballe into one category. Ceptain Neef: .... The only indication we have is a letter from MAC in Washington Seturday where they indicated the old project Sign is now project Grudge, which includes the phenomens observed in New Mexico. They knew of this meeting and were going to send a representative. Dr. LaPez: I just asked Mr. Hoyt a moment ago how he would compare the brillance of this object with that of an aircraft flare. He said they were of comparable magnitude. I think that was definitely ruled out ..... Dr. Teller: I understood that a reasonable explanation of the flying discs - and I suppose that it is generally lown - is that they are netecrological balloons. ...• I understand that in quite a number of cases there have been very close directions established. ..... I must say that from what you have said, it certainly sounds like everything else but meteors. The thing that impresses me is your evidence of the horizontel flight. Meteore do not usually come in like chat. (mumbled talk between Irs. Bradbury and Teller) Captein Heat: ....• Change of direction such that we haven't been able to follow it up yet. One of our men wes returning Sunday night when our tover operetor saw this object to the Southwest from Kiztland Field and .... Arizona reported it was Southeast from then. Fron the Kiztland tower it was a bronze color. The time checks, but from .... Arizona it was green until it turned straight dow and veered going ... • Dr. LaPaa: De. Teller, may I mention this one other instance that shows maybe why I have more concern then is merited by the evidence I am able to present. to work with anything that can't be photographed. I share that view but a conventional type. During the var I was acting as Director of the Ohio Section

━ PAGE 20 ━

Conference on AERTAL PEONOMENA Page 19 of the American Mateor Society and all at once we began to get reports of large numbers of stationary fireballs; not noving. The buzst was there, but no motion. Now one sho observes normal conventional fireball falls is aware of the lect that not 1 out of say 500 shows actual, fiaity; there is elways motion. So, this looks very, very strange. Of course, you all know what those stationary fireballs turned out to be. They were the self-destructive devices on Japanese paper balloons operating. You had a hydrogen filled sphere with a two-crown mask of magnesium flash-light powder. And when the magnesium and the hydrogen went off together, you could nee it for a long wey. We got stationary fireballs but they certainly were not meteoritic. My experience since I was suspected of psychological apparitions at the time I zeported these stationery fireballs to, for example, Dr. Kamplan, my expertence with .... led me to be very cautious about taking my concern..... but at the sene time I feel that we shouldn't be too hasty in glving a natural explenation to these green fireballs. Dr. Teller: ..... but I would like to aak, quite bright, more luntnous then normal meteorie phenomena are apparently Dr. LaPez: Well, the Japwry 30th one was; I wouldn't say that about the one I eaw on December 12, That was a very bright fireball, but not excraordinarily 80• Dz. Teller: What is the chance of getting pictures? Dr. LaPaz: I rafer to the one attempt that was made on the night of December 19. set up a phatagraphic patrol - the Alss, as you probably know, has been interested in this problem. They brougit a lot of spaed graphics end so on and set then up. Mr. Magwell, a member of the group ...., and they vere able, I think the night before, to photograph a bright Geminate. But on the night of the 19th nothing was observed. the next night, however, the night of the 20th there was an incident which I believe night have been photographed, but by that time the equipment had been disbanded and nothing was obtained. I should think, with proper coverage, say 10 to 15p, of these should record themselves provided you do not use green insensitive .... and f11m such as the .... Dr. Teller: Is there any possibility of having a wide coverage of the siy tziggered by a photo cell? Dz. LaPez: I have (iscussed that, for enemple with Dr. Reneger, who has been very much interested in the apparatus, and his ensver is more or less in the negative. I undergtand that Cornell. University - Cartline of Cornell - has produced some sort of photo-electric triggering device which has been used in this connection. I wrote him about it, asking for repriats or instructions, but never received a reply. Question: Do you think you are going to find film sensitive to this green color fast enough? We have some that can't be left out over 12 houre.....

━ PAGE 21 ━

Conference on AERIAL PERNOMENA Page 20 Dr. LaPaz: It should be possible ..... The conventional meteor cannot be photographed at the present time. The so-called neteorschnitts that Harvard College is no having produced at very great expense, they expect to go down to the 4th and possibly fainter. With one of those, a bright green fIzeball might be photographed, but they are not available. .... Mr. Newburger: Does anybody know if there were any experiments carried out in Burope, prior to the wer when our last best intoration came fran ovez there, along this line? Dr. LaPez: Not to my mowledge. I raised that question with Dr. Kaplan and he gave me some rather surprising intonation. IAU meetings in Syria ? and the Russions had a lazge representation there. Sufficiently large, as a matter of fect, to beat down the proposal that the JAU appoint an intemational committee to investigate the so-called ..... meteorite crater produced in the fall of 1947, February 12. On the contrary, at the Osweld, I think 16 was, conference of the Internationl Geophysical Union, none of the Russian geophysicists vere prasent. Kaplan's interpreta- tion was that they feel so far shead of us that they didn't think they could learn anything, and they were taking the precaution that no leak occurred. Mr. Newburger: Were the Gemans experimenting in any phase that was possibly cornected with it? Dr. LaPaz: Vell, they had the so-called stacions in space ..... might have some attachment to it. Condr. Mandelkora: You don't have any record of experiments. Dr. LaPaz: No, no knowledge of experiments. ..... I have the belief that no countzy in the world has there been meteorities developed as it has in Fussie, Recently, the Academy of Solence of the USRR has been issuing a so-called meteoritic, an extraordinary publication - very little work of the caliber being done by the Russtans has been conducted in the United States. Apporently, there 1t has big support; here, It is en individual matter. Until ve had sone military interest in meteoritics, we were never able to found even an institute ip meteoritics in the United States. The one In New Mexico is an outgrowth of application of neteoritica to determine, say, ballistic coerficients for shells of unconventional design like the proximity fuze shell with the radio in its nose, and that sort of thing. That's where we got a start. Apparently, the Russians got that earlier and have full-fledged state support. Dr. Holloty: How much intereat would the military have if they found out these things were lending all over the country, Canida, Hawaii, eto.? .•..• Have you contacted people in the Best? Dr. LaPaz: Olivia, C. C. Olivia, President of the Americen Meteor Society, King, Leonard, Pruitt, Kaplan, ete. Most of them have been observing; Kaplen, I imagine, has not, becsuse he is now preocepied with laboratory

━ PAGE 22 ━

Conference on ABRIAL PHENOMENA Page 21 experiments. I think that if anyone of the UCLA Institute of Geophysics had been observing, it would have gotten to Kaplan's ears. ..... There are two great advantages to this area: first, you have clear akies at night and can observe then as they come down, and second, (record blank for minute or two). Dr. Holloway: ..... this was before the var. They had a telephone networls which covered a fair section of the Best there. ..... a network so that your observationa ..... I mention this to indicate, I don't know what he is doing now, but at least they may have a group of people who have been observing. May not be in a position to ..... green fireballs, but they might have seen then. Dr. LaPaz: My one attempt to contact ..... and unfortunately I did not approsch him again for information, but someone acquainted with him should certainly ask if they have observed any of this sort of thing there. Comar. Mandelkom: Wel to the Society, so matter where they bad occurr tate nature have been reported Dr. InPoz: Yes, I would think so. For example, you can consult the so-called neteor notes of the American Meteor Society, and popular astronomy, they are publiahed from month to nonth with the President, C. C. Olivia, Dizector of the Florids, Observatory at the University of Pennsylvania. I've been through those very carefully. There's one single solitary case of a fireball which by one of the observers - a doubly observed fireball - so it was possible for me to .... in which one of the observers mentions a green color. Kot this peculiar yellow-green which most people in thet work find usual, and in the case of that the elevation determined is of the order of, oh 199 kiloneters fron the begiming point and roughly 100 for the end, so I think it in only an ordinry fireball; nothing unusual about it. That was the only case I found. Comdr. Mandelkorn: According to recent records, where the observation condi- tions in other parts of the country satisfactory? At least part of the time? Dr. LaPaz; Well, I infer from the fact that we have had so nuch trouble out here and the East has been bragging about its climatic advantages, that probably during the recent months, they have had. good observancy. I haven't attempted a full scale check on that. Condr. Mandelkorn: Let's put it this way then: Have there been a sufficient number of fireballs reported in the last: 60 days in other parte of the country to lead us to infer that had some of these occurred, they would have been reported? De. LaPaz: I think that definitely is true. To my knowledge, as far as the contacts I've had with Olivie and so on, there was nothing out of the normal noticed in the Fast, and in the South, phall we say as for up s$ White Sands. Whether the Harvard Observatory setup observed anything peculiar or not, I don't know. We tried right away to get that information. We were told by the gentlenan in charge down there, I'm sure thie will be interest to you, that

━ PAGE 23 ━

Conterence on ABRIAL PEONOMENA Page 22 it was impossible to make an estimete of the approximate wave and. engstrons without detailed spectroscople equipment, which he did not possess. whether the Captain aotually cut out the spectrun charts and sent them to him or not, I don't know, but it was considered. Dr. Bredbury: Well, we're not contos up with any bright ideas for you very fest. Vr. Newburger: No, but as long as ve have the problem presented to you, maybe by thinking on this, you will come up with an ides! ..... Of course, you know our entire connection with started with Madelyn Gwym Merchent back in 1946! Dr. Lalaz: Except for the flying disce, nothing that you could sey would cause me greater embarrassment? I have actually bad commnications from Madelyn myself. within earshot of people Dr. LaPez: That seens incomprehensible, doesn't it, Da. Teller? I'm glad to hear you say that because that has been my feeling from the beginning. And we tried desperately to get confirming evidence whenever sounds were men- tioned. No reports have been obtained. Dr. Teller: I must say that the admission in which one could get .... typical phenomenon is something in the light of .... Dr. LaPaz: Kaplan told me be was going to get out one of his old blow pressure tubes and begin experimenting as soon as he returned from the UCLA, to see 1f he could duplicate in any may the descriptions we have given him. Dr. Holloway: What sound does a P-2 make when it goes overhead? Dx. LaPaz: I can tell you want they make waen they come down. Condr. Mandelkorn: I can tell you what they make when they go overhead at the height of about 1,000 yards. But anything man-made that passes overhead at the height of 8-10 miles, at this speed, could be inaudible. Dr. Teller: You think it could be? Condr. Mendelkorn: I think it could be. The only • Dr. Teller: Even if it went at the speed of 10 miles per second? Condr. Mandelkorn: Well, Dr. Teller: You see, at that time, the .. begins to come up. Dr. LaPes: You bet it does.

━ PAGE 24 ━

Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 23 Di. Bradbury: ....• Dr. Teller: You have to get a shock wave out of it. With a very small object the shock wave would be maller than .... I have not made calculations on it, but it's just common sense ..... x. LaPes: I would like to ask a question. without noise? (talk between Drs. Bradbury and, LaPas too fast and too jumbled te be crenscribed. Condx. Mandelkorn: From what Dr. Teller said ayparently a solid object con- verging with the atmosphere horizontally at about 8 to 10 miles altitude, 1t's incredible that it wouldn't be accompanied by some sort of sonie phenomenon. Dr. Teller: I would lile to repeat that to try to get an estimate of the size of the object, that it would have to have in order to get sound effects, is not an easy thing, but offhand I would say - thie is wet I would expect - that you get a very small object, as suall as an inch or analler. DE. LaPaz: Dr. Teller: If I remember correctly, the intensity, the amount of energy that goes into a shock wave is proportional to the square of the velocity. The velocity that you have here proportional to the square of the velocity and, of course, is proportional I should think probably to the square of the linear dimensions of the object that you have. How you have 10 miles per second. ... velocity you have 20 miles per second, go this could be, on that count, ten times fainter - the sound would be ten times fainter. On the other hand, a meteorite that you will hear, I think, …... that much across ..... (too much cross talk) Dr. Teller: That is sonething we could do right away. Now I do not know, tried to get fron you information on brightness, but I would like to ask agein some details ..... Dr. LaPaz: The brightest meteorite fall in history, of which we have historical record, was the ... fall in 1908, Juge 20 the light power, of that was of the order of 1015 - 10ig'. eutimates the pover, ergs per second. the case of the Texas fall it was probably not 100,000th as bright.

━ PAGE 25 ━

Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 24 Dr. Teller: Now let's try to get & check of this. (Dr. Teller then spent approximately the next trenty minutes or so figuring on the blackboard - estimating light, speed, kinetic energy, Bbock wave, etc.) Dr. Teller: If I can just believe everything I have heard and put it together with what I theoretically believe in, it ought to be a materiel body - might be an electron phenomenon. Dr. LaPaz: You see why I'm puzzled, Dr. Teller. Nothing like this, to my knowledge, has ever been observed in the case of meteorite drops. Dr. Teller: If you go to a group like UCLA or some other place where they have a good sound laboratory, they ought to be able to take the absence of sound observations - that is definitely incompatible, assuming that you know that there are ... and assuming that they have heard no sound from this, they ought to be able to work an upper range upon the sight of the object which has been moving, and fron these figures I would be inclined to belleve the object could probably not have a heat ? of something like I cubic centimeter. One centimeter in dimension, and that in turn would not have given the blinding effect, if it was a material object. Dr. Bradbury: Wait a minute, I think you've left out something in light effects - you don't have to worry about kinetic energy. You can get your light from chemicals as well. Dr. Teller: That is correct. .. Mr. Newburger: This seems to wind up the meeting. Dr. Bradbury: Still don't feel that the meteor stuff is out. The puzzling thing is the long horizontal path; also, absence of noise is puzzling. hgo